Iudas |
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In unmodded
MW+Trib+BM, there are many NPC's who possess "goodies" but who are
completely undernourished for the goodies they possess.
Examples: The lady sorceress who has Chrysamere has a LongBlade
skill of 12. Her ability to use Chrysamere is non existent. The
Skel War Wizard with the Vampiric ring has no offensive spells
Sorkvild the Raven has the lovely Masque of Clavicus Vile and no
heavy armour skills. Mentor's ring has no protectors and is in
an trapped urn that can be opened with a bent probe. Berengeval
with the amulet of flesh made whole is a pushover 50 of the
merchants with bartergold greater than 500 septims have minimal
mercantile and speechcraft skills. So far, thanks to work by
Wakim and myself, I have a list of about 156 characters whose skill
levels are mismatched to their "goodies" or the amount of money they
have. DagothUr has spells with 0 duration If you have found
a character in unmodded MW+Trib+BM who fits this definition I would
like to know about him or her. Consider this a continuation of
work started two years ago and a WIP. The objective will be to
modify the assigned spells or the skill levels of these NPC's ( and
creatures ) to more accurately coincide with the goodies they are
protecting from the ravishings of the PC. Some goodies ( the
thief's ring and some others ) are just laying around waiting for
the PC to stumble on them ... these are so far as I can tell
intentional and should probably not be addressed. So if you have
a favourite mismatch between goodie and NPC let's hear it.
Edited by Iudas (08/09/04 03:44
PM)
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Ronin49 |
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Iudas - This
looks like an astonishingly good idea and I am glad to see you
continuing with it.
[*Wondering why it has not been done already.*]
Perfect world
stuff perhaps but I look forward to the day when all the basic bug
fixes, tweaks, typo corrections and sensible NPC adjustments like
these are compiled into one clean and deconflicted mod.
-------------------- "And
to everyone seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!!
It's the answer to all your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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Amulet of
Shadows: you can get it at lvl 1! give the guy with the bow at least
the ability to paralyze you for a bit.
which also leads me to
the question: what about overnourished PCs? Ra'Virr selling demon
tantos - I always considered that a major unblancing issue. Which
mod addresses this? yours too? wakims?
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Iudas |
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Probably
hasn't been done because it is a lot of work to do it and not break
something else. And probably because noone is left running un-modded
MW+Trib+BM. .
And mostly because I doubt that there can be agreement on what would
constitute a proper change to the NPC's involved. Just using the
Chrysamere example: the holder is a sorceress so should I beef up
her sorcery and give her some serious spell power, and spells or
should I go with the dialogue flow and boost her Long Sword
capability so she can actually use Chrysamere? And to what level do
I boost her? 20, 25, 35? What level makes her reasonable to whom? I
have already decided as an operational rule to try to err on the
side of over strengthening them without making them stronger than
such serious foes in the game as Helseth. If nothing else, it
gives me an excuse to replay MW and the expansions without any other
mods ( except for the unofficial patch ).
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Iudas |
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Yeah Synette
and her girlfriend are now quite a bit more capable. The mod is
not yet addressing NPC's who sell over-strong items. Figured to
start with creatures and NPC's that are too weak for the goodies
they are protecting or too dumb for the money they have. I am
just trying to carry on some of the work that Wakim did that was
never released.
Edited by Iudas
(08/09/04 03:59 PM)
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Quote:
Perfect world stuff perhaps but I look forward to the day
when all the basic bug fixes, tweaks, typo corrections and
sensible NPC adjustments like these are compiled into one clean
and deconflicted mod.
How about the day when those
things are taken care of by an official patch?
All of
these issues have long been common knowledge on the forums owned by
the game developers, yet we have gone through several patches, 2
expansions, and a couple more patches, yet a ton of glaring errors
have been ignored and left to the community to fix.
It's
curious that a game as flawed as this one has managed to generate
such a vibrant community and loyal following.
-------------------- My Screens - Check 'Em Out http://www.cuneo.us/tesmw/browse.php?dir=GreenEyedYam
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I almost
forgot to mention the mod...
Nice idea, and it sounds like it should be a big improvement
to the quality of the quests.
-------------------- My
Screens - Check 'Em Out http://www.cuneo.us/tesmw/browse.php?dir=GreenEyedYam
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Iudas |
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Well the idea
has been sitting around for two years. I expect that we have seen
the last "official" patch for TES3 with the 1.61820 patch released
in July of 2003. And that is another thing about doing this mod,
changing NPC's has a really good chance of fubaring any quests
involving them, and has a really good chance of creating more
uber-trainers. So I expect it to be a bit of a slog.
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wakim |
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Give a man
a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will
be fed for life.
"How about the day when those things are
taken care of by an official patch?"
Bethesda may not have
taken the time to teach anyone to fish, but they included the pole,
line, hook, and bait when their customers first got their fish. For
many the diversion of "modding" the game has replaced the diversion
of "playing" the game. Since TESCS is the same tool that Bethesda
uses for altering the non-hardcoded portion of Morrowind, there is
only the difference of name in their releasing an "official patch"
and someone releasing a "mod." With some reflection there can be
discerned several reasons why Bethesda would not release an official
patch that addressed the same material as an available
mod.
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Iudas |
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Quote:
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to
fish and he will be fed for life.
Give a man a poorly prepared
puffer fish and he will be fed for the rest of his life. (
cunningly disguised 24 hour bump )
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Zriza |
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I think it's a
good idea. I haven't been around on the game enough to make
suggestions about who/what to change, but I think it makes sense for
it to be harder to get uber gear. I think a good line to follow when
changing them is make them more powerful in the skills that go with
the character (ex make the sorcerer have more powerful magic or more
magicka so she doesn't need to melee with the sword she can't use,
etc).
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Excuse me for
jumping in again
Some
things that spoil the game in the beginning:
* Fix the bug
where the Orc in Caldera only complains when you take away his armor
but doesn't act accordingly (that is, rip off your head, or, at
least, report you to the guards)
* Delay Dark Brotherhood
attacks or maybe, include that one mod that gives the assasins more
appropriate armor in the beginning (i.e. Chitin).
* Four
Words: Boots of Blinding Speed
dunno how to fix this, maybe make Pemenie play tag with you
hehe.
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maybe you
could make the ordinators at the vaults in vivec stronger as they
are just ordinary ordinators which seems wierd since they are
protecting thousands and thousands of gold in armor weapons and
jewels
-------------------- One day you will see And
dare to come down to me Yeah c'mon, c'mon, now take the chance
Ha ha Come dance!
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Iudas |
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Boots of
Blinding Speed : Pemenie is being made a bit more of a challenge but
the boots themselves are not going to be messed with. Other modders
have made changes to the boots ( usually to make them more PC
friendly and a decent mage can negate the Blind effect anyhow
) There is a mod available that reduces the annoying frequency of
DB attacks and strips them of almost everything except their
helms. Not familiar with the ORC situation can you give me the
NPC name?
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Iudas |
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They are on
the list. There are issues with changing ordinators and guards and
keeping compatibility with some of the most popular and best done
mods available. So this is a tread lightly area. One certain
thing is that the merged objects function from TesTool is going to
be really necessary for this mod to "play nicely" with other mods.
On these ordinators, some increase in their AI to make them more
antagonistic would not be out of order.
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vivec is weak
for a god i would like to see him incinerate me aor disembowl me
with a spell also my character is a freaking evil monster
-------------------- Be not afraid of growing slowly, be
afraid only of standing still. Chinese Proverb
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Iudas |
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I don't really
have a good idea on what to do with Vivec and Almalexia. At some
point any PC is going to be able to wipe the floor with them without
breaking a sweat. Likewise with Divayth Fyr and Dagoth Ur and his
assorted subDags ... they are all eventually very wimpy compared to
what the PC can become. Probably not the suggestion you want,
but; replay the game with a new character who is completely
different in skillset or mindset from the current character you have
and save your current "freaking evil monster" somewhere so you can
use him in Wizard's Island or whatever other difficult and demanding
mods are released in the future? Somewhere in these forums I read
that the top Level that the PC can obtain ( without the use of
skillcap removers ) is in the mid 70's. Given the generally dullfork
AI, it really takes an NPC or Creature to be about 3 times the level
of the PC for the battles to be interesting ( on the average
difficulty level ).
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Orc in
Caldera: crate on 2nd floor contains orcish cuirass, pauldron and
graeves, the owner urul gro lag is placed in the basement. owner
maybe should be duma gro lag who stand right next to the crate, just
to prevent a lvl1 getting 3000+ gold by going one floor lower and
selling armor to our scamp friend
About
the BOBS: I agree, they shouldn't be changed. But just taking
Pemenie for a stroll, that's no adequate quest for such a rare and
wondrous thing. Maybe she should have you take her to Dagon Fell
instead of Gnaar Mook
anyway, I hope you hinted at some change like this.
Sorry if
I'm not 100% on topic of your mod, which, I guess, is to balance
NPCs, but:
How to prevent ppl stealing glass weapons and
whatnot with just a scroll of ondusi?!
How to prevent a lvl
2 character from creating a locksplitter amulet with open door
100?
And while we're at it: undernourished traps
can you make them, like, deadly? or at least, irritating (drain
strength 100 hehe)?
All in all my thinking boils down to
this: how to slow down the vicious circle: more money - more
powerful items. I fear the game (and the game economy) is too broken
to ever be able to fix it all. But every step in the direction that
it's fun again to mix some potions or hunt kagoutis for their hides
just to make some bucks to be able to buy that silver longsword
is the right step.
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Ronin49 |
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Quote:
Somewhere in these forums I read that the top Level that the
PC can obtain ( without the use of skillcap removers ) is in the
mid 70's.
This is not my experience.
Accepting you use trainers, which I understand many purist players
do not, and have a relevant attribute boosting artifact, you can
continue to boost PC Level seemingly indefinitely, without otherwise
touching skillcaps, though skills do remain topped out at
100. Without trainer use that may be so.
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing naked and
headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your
troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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Quote:
Orc in Caldera: crate on 2nd floor contains orcish cuirass,
pauldron and graeves, the owner urul gro lag is placed in the
basement. owner maybe should be duma gro lag who stand right next
to the crate, just to prevent a lvl1 getting 3000+ gold by going
one floor lower and selling armor to our scamp friend
About
the BOBS: I agree, they shouldn't be changed. But just taking
Pemenie for a stroll, that's no adequate quest for such a rare and
wondrous thing. Maybe she should have you take her to Dagon Fell
instead of Gnaar Mook
anyway, I hope you hinted at some change like this.
Sorry
if I'm not 100% on topic of your mod, which, I guess, is to
balance NPCs, but:
How to prevent ppl stealing glass
weapons and whatnot with just a scroll of ondusi?!
How to
prevent a lvl 2 character from creating a locksplitter amulet with
open door 100?
And while we're at it: undernourished traps
can you make them, like, deadly? or at least, irritating (drain
strength 100 hehe)?
All in all my thinking boils down to
this: how to slow down the vicious circle: more money - more
powerful items. I fear the game (and the game economy) is too
broken to ever be able to fix it all. But every step in the
direction that it's fun again to mix some potions or hunt kagoutis
for their hides just to make some bucks to be able to buy that
silver longsword
is the right step.
There is a Thief Experience
Overhaul mod which does several of these things:
1) It makes
open spells *much* more expensive. No more low level mages wwho can
open everything. It'll now cost a fortune for an enchantment able to
do the same, too. 2) It makes traps much more deadly - quite
capable of killing a PC. 3) Traps are much harder to open - in
vanilla Morrowind a security skill of 5 and a bent probe can diarm
any trap. Not so any more. Combined with point 2, this makes traps
actually a serious problem.
-------------------- LichCraft 0.95 beta - discussion thread Homepage and download link
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Quote:
* Delay Dark Brotherhood attacks or maybe, include that
one mod that gives the assasins more appropriate armor in the
beginning (i.e. Chitin).
I wrote a mod which replaces
the dark brotherhood armour with 'brotherhood novice' armour as soon
as they die. The brotherhood novice armour is slightly superior to
chitin in cost and effectiveness, but not much.
The
advantage of doing it this way is that the assassins still have all
the defensive bonuses of normal dark brotherhood armour, but the
player looting the corpse doesn't have their game unbalanced as they
only find very cheap and fairly innefective brotherhood novice
armour. Since both armors use the same models, this changeover
is also undetectable
-------------------- LichCraft 0.95 beta - discussion thread Homepage and download link
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Quote:
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man
to fish and he will be fed for life.
"How about the day
when those things are taken care of by an official
patch?"
Bethesda may not have taken the time to teach
anyone to fish, but they included the pole, line, hook, and bait
when their customers first got their fish. For many the diversion
of "modding" the game has replaced the diversion of "playing" the
game. Since TESCS is the same tool that Bethesda uses for altering
the non-hardcoded portion of Morrowind, there is only the
difference of name in their releasing an "official patch" and
someone releasing a "mod." With some reflection there can be
discerned several reasons why Bethesda would not release an
official patch that addressed the same material as an available
mod.
Wow, that was patronizing.
"With some reflection" my ass...
I'm aware of the wonders of
the CS and I'm aware of the existence of mods that fix some of
Bethesda's screw-ups. I'm also aware that there will be no further
patches from Bethesda. Furthermore I realize that there are people
out there who use the CS as deftly as any of the Devs ever did and
that these people are totally capable of adding any polish that the
original releases lacked. No reflection is necessary, thanks.
That said, I'm fairly certain that the purpose of the CS was
not to allow users to fix official mistakes. The mistakes that have
been fixed by unofficial mods were common knowledge prior to the
expansions and any of the patches. They should have been fixed
officially, not because users couldn't do it, but because they
shouldn't have to.
MW is a good game with a great CS, but
the fact remains that Bethesda is as guilty of putting out flawed
products as any other developer, and if users point out the flaws on
official forums they ought to fix them.
As far as this "give
a man a fish" crap, that has nothing to do with anything, aside from
establishing a snotty tone. First off, nothing was given ,
something was sold . Second off, the CS was ostensibly made
to allow users to mod their games, not fix the original copy.
Either way, this mod sounds like a great idea.
-------------------- My Screens - Check 'Em Out http://www.cuneo.us/tesmw/browse.php?dir=GreenEyedYam
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Iudas |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
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Orcs in
Caldera easy solution thank you. Still working on the BOB
situation Easy theft: use LDone's thief improvement mod to make
theft a lot less easy and a lot more rewarding. In a few specific
cases it may be necessary to increase the lock level on a chest or
the trap type to a more deadly one. Locksplitter 100: No way to
prevent that without redoing the whole enchanting subsystem or
arbitrarily removing spell effects. The first is beyond the scope of
this mod and the second is arbitrary. Wimpy traps: Install
LDone's thief improvement mod. It actually makes traps kill, locks
difficult and sneaking a lot more than just putting a stack o dimes
on the CTRL key and going to a movie.
Improving the economy
is another WIP that I have been puttering with for a while. What
cant be fixed is enchanting it is the basic money pump and most of
it is hardcoded below the level at which TESCS operates. So I can
modify a lot of the economic behaviour but eventually it comes down
to how a player wants to play the game. Got to be room for the
PowerGamer, the Console user, the general part timer and the devoted
Role Player too. But right now I am just concentrating on NPC
who are either undernourished for the goods they are supposed to
protect or too stupid for the money they have to buy with. Other
things like correcting the ownership of a chest fit nicely into
this. Changing that chest ownership is not going to hose anybody
else's mod or any quests but it removes a logical flaw in the
gameplay. Now about Creeper and Mudcrab. I already know that I am
going to include a very small, separate esp that does exactly one
thing and that is to remove these two guys from the game. Not going
to remove them in the NPC and Creatures Corrections Mod because some
folks love these two little jokes and other folks hate them. Let the
user decide about them. In another thread a Hunter's guild mod is
being discussed. And there are several mods that take off from
hunting and are quite fun to play.
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Iudas |
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Thank you for
the clarification Ronin. I should have said that without
resorting to playing the game engine instead of the game, I believe
that when you top all your skills at 100 your max level is somewhere
in the 70's. Aftifacts and such obviously push levels past that and
indeed there are creatures and NPCs in TESCS with some impressive
levels.
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Iudas |
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One of the
things that needs addressed is the disproportionate amount of
scrolls of unhinging and scrolls of Ephygi's gem Feeder that show up
in barrels and inventories and on desks during the first several
days of play around Seyda Neen and environs. I started a new game
the other day and by the end of game day three I had 74 scrolls of
Ondusi's unhinging. Every level 40 and below lock was .... poofed.
So it is time to look into the levelled lists a wee bit and find out
why so many of these scrolls show up so early.
LDone's Thief
Experience Overhaul: Don't Leave the C&EO office without it. (
likewise Wakim's Game Improvements 9 modular )
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Grumpy |
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Off
topic...
What I was driving at: Definition.
...and who
is it that makes that definition. You. I. We do a poll in which only
the people associated with this forum participate?
My feeling
is that it IS there for us to discover, but how do we go about that
in a reasonable manner that "carries" the majority of the players
(and modders) along with it?
I haven't read the thread, but
how the hell ThePal got away with his patch mod without discernable
disagreement is beyond me.
Reason I've had such a quandry
about the thread I started...
As many opinions as posts...
Impossible to reach agreement?
Without authority, we go
nowhere. With authority we become
authoritarian...
Suggestions anyone???
On topic: Umbra
should only relinquish his weapons/armor if bested in melee
combat...
-------------------- Grumpy My
mods
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Iudas |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
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Not offtopic
at all. Eventually somebody does something one way and somebody else
does it another and still another person tries a third path. And the
market decides which path is better advertized or better implemented
or closer to what fits the user's conceptions. Bethesda could be
the only arbiter and only if they make changes below the level that
the TESCS operates at. Sweet Anarchy prevails and is the magic key
to the longetivity of TES3. MW can be anything a willing player
wants it to be. With a lot of work MW can become a similacrum of
Middle Earth or Star Wars or Thief3 or just about any other series
or fantasy the various users want; this mod is just an attempt to
make MW a better MW. So I am doing a mod that has a limited aim.
It has a logical basis ( as I define the logic ). It involves a (
mostly ) consistent set of small tweaks to various NPC's based on
the ingame unmodded value of items they are protecting. It will
never be used by The Majority of MW players and probably not by even
a small minority. When it is done it will satisfy my need to have
the game make logical fantasy sense to me. If my perception has any
applicability beyond my own mind then some other users will garner
some small degree of pleasure from using it; if not not. Without
external authority, there is freedom; with it there is subservience
and limited replayability and short shelf life. How did thePal do
what he did? He asked for broken scripts and spelling errors and
dialogue fubars and he corrected them one at a time, His mod is the
polish that Bethesda could have done had they had the time and
budget and inclination, the sort of labour of love that does not
need anyone's elses approval. He did not need to worry about
agreement because if a script is broken or a word is spelled
incorrectly or a journal entry is connected to the wrong dialogue no
disagreement is possible; there is sits, an error and errors get
corrected. Some things feel wrong like Umbra the uberwarrior not
being uber, like the vampirewarwizard not having any offensive
spells; it doesn't mean that they are objective errors. So unlike
ThePal's mod, which corrected objective errors, this mod is about
making some things that feel wrong to me, feel right; and in the
process it may correct some objective errors like a container with
the wrong ownership in Ghorak Manor How did Wakim do what he did?
He looked at a situation that made no logical sense and took the
time to reverse engineer the equations to find the tweak values that
would make an illogical situation come closer to logical behaviour.
Likewise LDones with his Thief mods, likewise Beancounter with his
study of alchemy. No Poll has ever given something new to the
world. Polls just allow one to rearrange the existing seating based
on the sample of willing responders. Examine the premise, why should
we believe that there is a "bestset" of mods and then attempt to
carry the majority of players along? Do the majority of players even
use mods? Any bestset today will be invalid tomorrow when a better
or different or more outlandish or more loreish mod comes along, do
we then repoll at regular intervals, popularity polls? Everyone
loves face and body replacers right? No. Everybody loves Giants and
Morrowind Advanced Right? No. I think your next to the last line
is exactly backwards...Without authority we actually go places. With
authority we go nowhere new.
Umbra is on the list, he is
undernourished for the sword he has and easy pray to most
spellcasters and his sword's given enchantment is a spellcaster's
delight. I have been thinking of giving him Umbra's curse a 100%
reflect curse and a small dialogue change to warn spellcasters that
he has been cursed. Wouldn't want to toast all the Mages and
sorcerors and battleMages and such like lusting for that
soultrapping sword.
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Ronin49 |
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Quote:
I should have said that without resorting to playing the game
engine instead of the game, I believe that when you top all your
skills at 100 your max level is somewhere in the 70's.
Hmmm . . . I appreciate very
much your detailed knowlege of the game, the insightful commentary
you have brought to several threads and the NPC nourishing project
you are working on. Seems to me though that using artifacts and
capabilities that exist in the unmodified game is not necessarily
"playing the game engine" as you put it but rather simply playing
the game in a different way than you might choose to do.
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing naked and
headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your
troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Quote:
... not necessarily "playing the game engine" as you put it
but rather simply playing the game in a different way than you
might choose to do.
Agreed. That is an exemplar of
the reason I am taking so long to do any mods. I enjoy many other
modder's mods that do not "tread lightly" on the basic MW
components; but for my own work I prefer to tread lightly so as not
to break things. Not so much a purist but a minimalist ( or just a
lazy sob). If I can tweak one GMST to achieve a goal or write the
most impressive script, I opt for the GMST.
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Ronin49 |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1792 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Quote:
. . . for my own work I prefer to tread lightly so as not to
break things. Not so much a purist but a minimalist (or just a
lazy sob). If I can tweak one GMST to achieve a goal or write the
most impressive script, I opt for the GMST.
Agreed. And just one reason of
several reasons why I reckon your 'NPC nourishment project' is
likely to bear truly beneficial fruit, or at least fruits that are
to my taste. That and some serious doubt about the "lazy" part.
Thanks.
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing
naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all
your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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... So unlike ThePal's mod, which corrected objective
errors, this mod is about making some things that feel wrong to
me, feel right...
Yes, but yours and wakims
approach still has somthing in common with the unofficial patch: You
aim to make Morrowind work as it should have worked from the
beginning. I guess you have the vote of a vast majority of players
that those things you mention do not "feel right".
So, in my
book, it's no mod. It's more of a game improvment/completion/patch
kinda thingie. No mod because there are no new landscapes, NPCs,
quests, armors or weapons. My wish would be that your WIP (well, the
REL actually) would come in a bundle with thepals and wakims work.
I'd call it the final patch
thx
to all ppl that hinted me at the various thiefs and DB mods, much
appreciated
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wakim |
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It is to my
own disbelief that I allow myself to be drawn into this topic. I do
so admitting ignorance of recent Morrowind particulars, such as who
ThePal is, and so on, but I will direct myself to what I hope to
show are the pertinent generalities.
I have seen many
searches made for what seems apt to term a “best-set” of mods;
either from a desire to avoid mod-to-mod conflicts, or to avoid
having to search all over to find the “good” mods, or what-have-you.
All these attempts to find the best-set of mods fail because they
begin without first answering the question of What is best? Without
first knowing the answer to this question how can one expect to find
out what mods fall into the category of best? It would be like
trying to sort out the red marbles from a bag of red and green
marbles without knowing the difference between red and green.
Without knowledge of what is best such mod lists become instead
“What I like.” Who can argue with someone who says I like green
marbles, or I like red marbles? There will never be consensus on
things that are mere likes and dislikes, and thus the mod search
ultimately devolves into pointless bickering over why my likes are
better than your likes.
Fortunately, the things that are
important are not subject to likes and dislikes. It is meaningless
to make the statement, “I dislike oxygen,” or “I like gravity.”
These things are beyond the realm of preference to address.
Preference only possesses importance when there exists no other
compelling reason for a thing.
Knowing the purpose of a
thing will allow one to know what is best to achieve that end. If a
game is a thing whose purpose is diversion achieved by a contest of
skill, then those things that achieve this are best in a game. This
doesn’t mean that there isn’t someone who will think that a game’s
purpose is something else, just as one may use a book to prop up a
table - it isn’t a book’s purpose to do so and hence misuses the
book.
The objection may here be raised that what is a
contest of skill is actually defined by the challenge that it
presents and thus will vary from person to person, and therefore
suggest that this introduces subjectivity back into the question;
consider if this were true: For instance, Lance Armstrong would not
be challenged by what may well prove beyond the ability of you or I
to surmount. Failing to best Lance Armstrong in a bicycle race –
failing in a contest of skill – doesn’t mean that it wasn’t
challenging, just as winning a contest doesn’t mean that it
was challenging. What is challenging is independent from what
is a contest; Lance Armstrong isn’t much challenged by racing
against you, but it is still a contest that determines the bicycling
skill of the competitors when you race against him.
In a
contest of skill the property of challenge introduces a new element.
Consider that it is the qualities, or skills, that Lance Armstrong
possesses in his sport that make him a champion. One is not a
champion for overcoming an ant, but by showing himself to possess
the best of skill. As shipped, Morrowind required essentially no
skill to overcome and thus did not allow for excellence to
differentiate its players – it lacked challenge. If the challenge
that an individual overcomes is what allows one to become a
champion, then reducing the challenge necessarily reduces one’s
ability to become a champion – it diminishes one’s ability to
achieve excellence in that environment. A contest without challenge
is a contest without the capacity to distinguish excellence. Will
anyone seriously argue that what lacks excellence can ever be what
is best?.
Morrowind does, however, posses a splendid
graphical environment, and other qualities (including the latent
potential realized through the malleability achieved with the
construction set) that provide diversion in ways other than those
that pertain to the contest of skill that serve to define a game.
However, if one wishes to make a game better, then it must be by
making it better as a game – a contest of skill – and not by making
it better in what it is not, say, as a breakfast cereal; a mod that
adds nutritional content to Morrowind when served with milk in a
bowl would make Morrowind more nutritious, but not a better game
qua game. Likewise, a mod that adds new, or different
graphics and visual art does not make Morrowind a better game; it
may add to the diversion that Morrowind can offer, but not to the
contest of skill that is what defines a game – if one wanted
diversion by viewing graphics or visual art he would be better
served by visiting an art gallery. The graphics of Morrowind are not
essential to itself as a game, but an unessential property (consider
text based adventure games). You may like or dislike Morrowind’s
graphics, but they are unessential to it as a game, and hence
as a game they do not make it better or worse. Please
understand I am not arguing for my like or dislike of graphical
enhancements for Morrowind (for the record, I can be just as
entertained and distracted by eye candy as anyone), I am arguing for
what is essential to Morrowind.
I thank Iudas for tolerating
my here addressing things in general and the definition of what a
game is and does; in fine: a diversion that is achieved by a contest
of skill, in which, if excellence is to be achieved, must provide a
challenge. And providing a challenge is the reason for nourishing
those under-fed NPCs, no?
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Iudas |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
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Should is one
of those words that gives me the willies. Morrowind worked the
way the Devs and Bethesda wanted it to work when it was released.
They patched it twice to catch errors that impeded it from working
in places. They added two expansions because it was a very
successful game in the market. They patched again to bring it in
line with what they wanted it to be. And smarter than that, they
created an editor with enough power to do serious things and enough
flaws and errors to entertain and enchant in its own
right. ThePal did what Bethesda could have done had they felt it
was worth their while to do it. And they still could surprise us all
with another patch ( I am not holding my breath waiting for it )
that would fix some outstanding flaws at the coding level where the
Editor does not tread. And to be honest about things, whether the
vast majority of players or 0 players use my mod after it is
finished is not the criteria. Morrowind diverts me like no other
game in the last many years ( I have not started Doom3 yet ) so this
mod is my way of making my diversion more enjoyable to me. I
have three other mods in various states of disrepair ... one fixes
the MW economy in ways that make logical sense to me. The other two
add new quests, new NPC's, new joinable factions and all the other
goodies. If I am ever motivated to start the drudgery of dialogue,
then eventually it will be possible to enjoy a full fledged
social/economic class war on MW complete with nasty guerilla warfare
type weapons; and also possible to play as a Tax Collector/Tax
Farmer in an enhanced C&EO faction. And everybody hates the
taxman. Meanwhile I am looking at this Imperial who absconded
with the Lord's Mail. I think I have found another wimp. And this V
Vatinius guy .... His stats are going to have to be boosted a bit he
ends up with Chrysamere and The Lord's Mail and then I have to duel
with him. He should at least have the credentials to use the
armour and weapons he has that I want.
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Iudas |
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Slowly,
slowly, step by step and inch by inch you are being drawn back to
the fold.
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bl4k3 |
Acolyte |
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Reged: 06/19/04 |
Posts: 178 |
Loc: texas | |
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What about the
Quarra Ancient Vampires? are you going to make them seem more...
Ancient? the way a super strong immortal vampire should be?
-------------------- http://www.kickyouintheeye.com/ hey look its
my website!
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Iudas |
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I have not yet
gotten to the vampires ( in thinking about it, I don't think I have
ever even played as a vamp yet ). I will put them on the list. If it
is a matter of their appearance, then no I will not be doing
anything to them. If it is a matter of their dialogues, then again
no I will not be adjusting that. I believe Cortex has a mod that
does wonderous things to the believability and power of vampires,
but mucking about with the default vamps could muck with his mod and
that is to be avoided. If some of the quarra vampires appear to
have skillsets too low for some item they are guarding or involved
with then I will try to adjust that.
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Grumpy |
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This is an
enjoyable thread...
...and
I'm going to disagree with Wakim's interpretation of "game".
Particularly with "this" game:
There is a big word that I
like to use that I don't understand (and please don't try and
explain it to me because I won't understand that either...). Word is
Gestalt. I am vaguely familiar with who he was, and maybe even a bit
of his philosophy, but the point I would make is that you cannot
mearly say that this game's success is based solely on it's
competitive nature. It's success, as in all things, is based on it's
Gestalt (I hope that makes sense...), or the overall "feel" of the
thing.
The human mind percieves things dynamically whether
we like it that way or not (or whether we can comprehend the
information that is constantly flooding our senses at any given
time). This screen I'm looking at is a perfect example: Windows
succeded because instead of sitting here looking at a black screen
with white text on it, I now have all these pretty arrow things and
icons and fancy backrounds, etc... It is the "Gestalt" of the thng
that draws me in. Granted, when in combat (I used to wrestle), your
senses are directed to a single end, but MW is not constant combat.
It is much more, and I think that is as much responsible for it's
success as is it's "competitive" aspect.
Wakim: I know this
is not your sole point of view, and I do not accuse you of that, but
in relation to what I said earlier, my thinking is that this
"Gestalt" can be achieved. It is Iudas' intent to do that with his
improvements... Hell, most any mod made is an attempt in one fasion
or another to improve the thing, but what I'm driving at is how do
we hit that "sweet spot" in relation to these "fix" types of mods.
The devs did it in respect to the "Gestalt" of the game, so why
can't we in our endeavors to improve it?
Point is, we already
have to a great degree, but how do we "define" that and consolidate
it, and then make it acceptable to those individuals who love this
game and want to see it the best it can be?
Not talking about
a "Best of" list here, in the same manner that Iudas is not talking
of fixing things to HIS liking (whether he wants to admit that or
not...), but fixing things the way they "should" (sorry Iudas) be
fixed. We KNOW what that is. We just have problems "defining"
it...
We're all basically headed in that direction. Can't we
kind of carpool a little?
On
topic: (promised myself I wouldn't post this without something on
topic) Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama cave...
-------------------- Grumpy My
mods
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Iudas |
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Posts: 1197 |
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Quote:
On topic: (promised myself I wouldn't post this without
something on topic) Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama
cave...
I know the devs put a freebie ebony
sword on the odai plateau as a sorta bennie for doing the walkabout
thing. Which Kwama cave has a unguarded daedric laying around for
the picking? And of course the follow up question.... Guard it
with an appropriate character or remove it to the possession of an
appropriate character, or just remove it or just leave it as another
not so small reward from the devs for going
spelunking?
Quote:
Not talking about a "Best of" list here, in the same manner
that Iudas is not talking of fixing things to HIS liking (whether
he wants to admit that or not...), but fixing things the way they
"should" (sorry Iudas) be fixed. We KNOW what that is. We just
have problems "defining" it...
I shall endeavour to continue to
refuse to admit that I am in any way trying to make MW as it
"should" be. I shall remain adamant that I am trying to make the
game more "fantasy logical" within the parameters of the game and
its gestalt as I understand it. Let me try with this analogy,
some things in MW feel like a sore thumb, not many things however;
and that is why the things that do feel like a sore thumb are really
really noticeable. So all I am trying to do here is reduce the
swelling.
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Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1792 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Shorter by a
head!
Quote:
Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama cave...
Damn! I just knew some
'kind soul' would mention that little toad-stabber.
On topic, sort of:
In parallel but not blind to each
other - Sort out the NPC nourishment, Thepal is sorting out his next
version, sort out the fixes he is not planning to address, sort out
the typo fixes (two extant mods plus some in Thepal's).
Then, combine those near-finished components together into
one 'silver bullet' patch.
Leave Wakim's and Aerelorn's mods
separate - player's choice when or if to use, just as it would be
for other balancing or economic adjustment plug-ins.
Just my
two cents.
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing
naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all
your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
Edited by Ronin49 (08/11/04 09:09 PM)
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Grumpy |
Disciple |
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Reged: 08/02/02 |
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Maesa-Shammus
Egg Mine
Found on "warrior dead 02"
Did a quick text
search. I see no quests associated with this... As I remember, it's
pretty much a romp in the park to get this most coveted weapon of
the game... Total of 8 blighted, leveled kwama types to be dealt
with is all.
"Sore thumb" analogy accepted...
-------------------- Grumpy My
mods
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Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
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Ok let me take
you through a walk in my brain here. Dead warrior in a kwama cave
with a really fine weapon. 1) there is an unknown backstory here
of course: what was he looking for, what did he stumble upon that
was strong enough to kill him or did the blight do him in? and why
did it leave that sword behind? First thought is some sort of
deadoth or clannfear or atronach since none of them use weapons did
him in and left the sword. And they might still be somewhere waiting
for the next sucker.
Second thought, he is bait and I am the
rat walking into the trap. Some human warrior or wizard did him
in and left him as an attractive temptation for me.
Third
thought, he has been dead a long time and forgotten, the sword is
just a bennie brought to me by good fortune and wandering feet. The
blight killed him and no sword could have stopped the blight. So his
death is my good fortune and I shall hoist a Flin in his memory some
day. Could even use taking the sword to trigger a mini quest that
would be closed if I ever ran across his SO and told her about
finding him. This would allow me to fill in the backstory and remove
some mystery.
Fourth thought, rig the sword to award me with
a nasty curse or even one of the blight diseases when I take it. a
trip to the healer some money out of pocket for healing and I have a
clean sword.
5th thought tone down the sword to something
less attractive maybe silver maybe dweem. MW has a lot of dead
adventurers in a lot of strange places and he is just another poor
sap who died on the road. There but for the grace of ALMSIVI go
I.
6th thought 8 blighted kwama hmmm maybe there is a dagoth
or ascended sleeper or such like around in hiding maybe that is who
is waiting for me to take the sword.
7th thought resurrect
the guy, give him a bad case of the blight ( think Din on a bad day
and with a really bad attitude ) and some stats to make his having
and handling the sword believable.
Now multiply this little
exercise in schizophrenia by ( almost 200 so far )
True some of them are much easier the living ones who are just
starkly sore thumbs inept but ones like this can have me pondering
for hours on how to nudge this into a seamless and acceptable
thing. Right this minute I like 7 or 4 and am not averse to 3 or
5. 4 because there are so few curses used in game and because a
little paranoia in the PC is a good thing. 7 because a mighty sword
ought not to fall without a mighty battle. and 3 because every day
is somebodies birthday. And five because that does the least
change to the game. All of which gives me a really bad idea for a
new class The Ditherer born under the sign of the Procrastinator and
gifted with a complete set of the Bipolar armour.
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Grumpy |
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Quote:
5th thought tone down the sword to something less attractive
maybe silver maybe dweem. MW has a lot of dead adventurers in a
lot of strange places and he is just another poor sap who died on
the road. There but for the grace of ALMSIVI go I.
Wormgods approach. He sapped
all of the Daedric stuff from defeated whatevers in MWA and replaced
them with silver whatevers instead...
Quote:
7th thought resurrect the guy, give him a bad case of the
blight ( think Din on a bad day and with a really bad attitude )
and some stats to make his having and handling the sword
believable.
That one doesn't sound bad. I
remember a movie called "Jeremia Johnson", and in that there was an
allusion to a fellow that lived with a cantankerous bear. He was
totally loony. Maybe this guy has the hots for the Kwama Queen...
Obviously
#5 for the sake of keeping the game somewhat leveled, but the
downside to this is that this is the only Daedric dai-katana
available other than two others: One owned by Bolvyn Venim and the
other owned by Llaro Llethiri. Venim: Level 20 Archmaster of the
Redoran, and Llethiri: Level 24 and one of the Dren Plantaion
thugs.
Listed in the editor: One in the Kwama cave; two
mentioned above, and the others are in the leveled lists (randoms).
(original MW here)
-------------------- Grumpy My
mods
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Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Quote:
One owned by Bolvyn Venim and the other owned by Llaro
Llethiri. Venim: Level 20 Archmaster of the Redoran, and Llethiri:
Level 24 and one of the Dren Plantaion thugs
These two are already "on the
list" for various reasons. As is correcting the faction membership
of 4 of the people at the dren camp who are members of the thieves
guild for no reason. The dead guy went on the list last night,
have not reached a decision on him yet, leaning toward leaving him
there with his sword but having the effect of searching his body
give the PC a nasty dose of the Blight A long walk back from that
cave to a healer for the unprepped PC or a short swig on a potion
for the prepped adventurer.
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Iudas |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Update: Have about 200 undernourished NPC's and
underprotected "items of value" to handle so far. Additions:
incorrect NPC's, NPC's who are either given the wrong faction
membership or not given any membership when they should have it.
About 25 of them so far, mostly Camonna Tong, East Empire CO, and
C&EO. Have found 1 weapon that appears to have been made for
a specific minor quest character but was never given to her and one
weapon that appears nowhere ingame ( Axe of the Queen of Bats )
unsure what to do with this last one ( it sure is purty).
So
if anyone has found an undernourished NPC, or an item of value with
no protections or worthwhile guardians and an NPC in the wrong
faction or without the proper faction, I should like to know about
it.
Related comment about the non scarcity of Daedric and
Glass weapons, There actually are relatively few daedric items
assigned in game. But every Dremora, Dremora Lord and Golden Saint
drops them at the first cross-eyed look do to the way Bethesda set
up the levelled lists. It is this huge influx of randomly dropped
goodies that is so unbalancing to the economy of the game. This is
not something I intend to address in this mod, just dropping it out
there for the folks doing economic balancing mods.
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Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1792 |
Loc: Canada | |
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From this
thread - [LIST] Monk/Unarmoured Mods
Thank you for
the clarification and, not to be a Philistine but if Mercantile does
not work rationally, it seems to me that whether 'broken' or simply
set up with poor assumptions or math amounts to much the same
result, unless the one condition is more permissive of a remedy. I
look forward to the Undernourished NPC release and its remedial
effect on barter.
You also stated " And anyone who wants
can make the changes to the GMSTs that will correct the bad
assumption on Bethesda's part."
Do I understand that
correctly to mean that adjusting the merchant NPCs as you are AND
changing the GMSTs would correct all or most of the problem with
Mercantile function? And if that is the case, then why not do it in
the Undernourished NPC mod?
-------------------- "And to
everyone seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's
the answer to all your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
Post Extras: |
Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Quote:
Do I understand that correctly to mean that adjusting the
merchant NPCs as you are AND changing the GMSTs would correct all
or most of the problem with Mercantile function? And if that is
the case, then why not do it in the Undernourished NPC mod
Exactly correct. Why is it not
in the undernourished NPC mod? Feature creep avoidance and the
desire to have this mod ONLY address undernourished NPC's and some
specific creatures. A modular approach if you will. And I can
always breakout the Merchants from the undernourished mod and
repackage them in a mercantile improvements mod for folks who only
want the Merc part and not the combat/mage/creature part.
To
my way of thinking, if a feature is irrepairable at a level the
modder can not legally get at then it is BROKEN, ( unarmoured,
turnundead as examples). If some of the GMSTs are no longer
representative of the assumed skill base of the playing public, ose
GMSTs can be adjusted with minimal bother. The chosen values that
were adequate 2 years ago when all players were new to the game and
the interactions in the game; might/are no longer adequate for folks
who have played it and modded it for two years. Mercantile works
rationally given the microeconomics of morrowind. Hell, Mercantile
works rationally at almost any farmer's market or flea market in
this world today. But the Morrowind world is not a world of walmarts
and MickeyDs. The value of a thing in MW is exactly whatever you can
buy it for or sell it for. Any refernce to book values is irrelevant
to the MW world. Two things majorly determine final agreed
pricing in MW. The difference in merc skills between the PC and the
NPC, and how high the NPC's disposition toward you is. With the
UndernourishedMod, the first part is adjusted so that NPC's are no
longer inept at Merc and Speechcraft. There are other things that
play a smaller part in determining final price ( differences in
Luck, player Reputation, FactionMembership) but they are minor in
their effect compared to Disposition and Merc Difference. A later
mod will address the gamesettings and some other skill advancement
setting issues.
It is quite easy, just time consuming, to
modify the microeconomic environment of MW. Bartering is just
another form of combat and behaves pretty much the same way combat
does. Fixing the Macroeconomic environment is a whole nother
kettle of septims. The reason folks complain that the early game is
difficult in bartering but that later in the game they are all
millionaires is that MW has this huge externality called
LevelledCreatures in LevelledLists from which are dropped scads of
"scarce" Daedric weapons. They become so much clutter and dross but
the game is not sophisticated enough to reduce their prices as the
supply keeps increasing and the demand stands still. So you end up
with dozens of daedric items that you were told are scarce and
highly valuable, and for which you have no outlets and basically no
use. Fixing that issue is not something I am looking forward to
addressing. Sources and sinks --- the major sources are the
levelled drops and the levelled crates and barrels come a distant
second. Major sinks NONE, there is basically nothing for the PC to
invest in, and very little to spend on and certainly no level of
taxation. Minor sinks currently are diseases, curses and drain and
damage spells on the PC for which he has to spend some pocket change
for cheap meds until he finds the armour of uberprotectiveness and
gets his 90% resistances to everything and shield and reflect and
sanctuary and immunity to normal weapons.
So the game is continually pumping value into the environment, while
taking close to 0 out of the environment. The PC is left to be a
collector ( I always thought the Lord of Clutter quests in Tribunal
were the devs joking acknowledgement of the reality of the game ),
plutocrat, Scrooge McDuck sitting on his piles of septims and
diamonds and rubies and emeralds and pearls surrounded by hordes of
Daedric weapons and Ebony suits of armour and enchanted rings and
amulets. Not bad for the 1001 post.
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I've followed
this idea and liked it from the start...
On managing
macroeconomics, I've always been a proponent of taxation. I mean,
what good is taking over Tamriel if you can't exact tribute and
taxes from the locals? For that matter, how does the Temple/Tribunal
run things with no income? I would think an annual census and
tax...assessed at various census/excise offices built through the
island, would be appropriate. Say, one office in each great house
headquarters, one in Vivec for the Temple, and one in Seyda Neen for
the outlanders not in Great Houses?
Higher travel fees seem
appropriate, too. Travel is dangerous, even on giant bugs. There
should be more incentive to walk.
A supply/demand curve
would be hard to script...but maybe an If/Then script. Say, if a
armor dealer already has 2 daedric weapons, he offers a lower
percentage of the value for a 3rd, 4th, etc? That way, you'll have
to shop around your weapons to see where you can get a decent price.
OR just make artifact and daedric weapons "priceless"...give them no
sale value. Then they're good either for donation to the museum, or
collection. Just some thoughts
~Nordie
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Iudas |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Taxation is
one of the two evils of the world. All Empires Tax Except
this one which has decided to give the PC a tax break. .
We can create as many arbitrary Septim sinks into the game as we
wish. Scripted taxation scripted Guild Fees scripted
Religious Tithing ( 10% of the PC's income each week to the temple
or the Cult ) More diseases, more often, and much higher priced
drugs and healing services. Charitable contributions ... beggars
and mendicants. Forced Donations and Weapons Drives....like
the paper drives of WWII. More NPCs who react loudly and
negatively to stealing and trespass. Higher priced travel and
maybe travel insurance. Higher priced training. Fewer easily
readable, unprotected Training Books. NPC pickpockets and
bandits and conmen and scammers Comatose Tong extortionists and
arsonists. Forcing the PC to eat and drink and sleep daily all
of which cost money. ( My only cavil with the fine NOM2 is that
the PC can carry perishable food items in his sweaty ole inventory
for a long as he wants. Ideally, food should deteriorate rapidly in
the MW/medieval type environment. Food deterioration was the big
motivator to the salt trade and the spice trade ) and we can
jigger with the frequency and level of exorbitant item drops. MW
feels a whole lot different when there are only 18 daedric weapons
on the whole island over the whole course of the game. Now finding
that deadguy in the Kwama Mine with the Daedric Sword is a big deal.
Getting GoldBrand is a big deal not just another ho hum display
sword. On The Sources Side of the Equation: There is a fine
mod called Erengard Mines that shows how one can develop a decent
source of weekly income for the PC. Another MOD that looks promising
is the Farmer's mod. And there is are three very old mods:
Vvardenfell News, Indy Bank, and Balmora Stock Exchange that
generate either a weekly salary or interest income or capitol gains
income for the PC. A lot could be done with the C&EO as a
joinable faction if someone wanted to model the old idea of Tax
Farming ( Where an empire basically franchises the right to tax
certain areas to certain "special" folks and they get to keep
anything over the base amount the empire assesses them each quarter
). And of course the C&EO would be involved in controlling
smuggling and other forms of tax avoidance. And with BM
installed, it makes sense to integrate the EEC faction on MW and
make some of the MISC quests into unified EEC quests.
Quote:
if a armor dealer already has 2 daedric weapons, he offers a
lower percentage of the value for a 3rd, 4th, etc?
According to the sharp scripters
this would be a colossal PITA to code as you have to check for every
type and all the various enchantments.
Quote:
OR just make artifact and daedric weapons "priceless"...
Hardcoded into the game is that
NPC traders will never offer less than 1 septim for an item. Nor
will they ever ask less than 1 septim. Which is why it is so easy to
powergame Mercantile at the start of the game if one wants to spend
about an half an hour. Steal all the saltrice in Seyda Neen (
about 200 stalks each stalk has a bookvalue of 1 ) take it all to
Arielle and sell it ... one stalk at a time. If you offer him
all 200 at once he will maybe offer you 30 septims and you might
haggle him up to 33, if you offer him 1 he offers you a septim and
200 successful trades later you have 200 septims ( full book value
for every piece )
and your merc has risen 4 or 5 levels. RInse and repeat with all
the other items with BV of 1 that Arielle buys. It would be good
if merchants would refuse to buy quantity on these cheap items. Just
to close off one of the hardcoded loopholes in the game. That is
the only hardcoded part of mercantile that I wish the devs had not
done. They made it so that Merchants never offer the PC negative
amounts for his goods. But MW is supposed to be a combat magic
stealth game, crafting and economic interactions were lesser
considerations for the game's design.
Quote:
Then they're good either for donation to the museum, or
collection. Just some thoughts
Indeed, and Tribunal does that and
two good mods tweak the Mournhold Museum so that it will accept even
more Uniques into its collection.
Edited by Iudas (08/17/04 09:47 AM)
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Ronin49 |
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Posts: 1792 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Quote:
To my way of thinking, if a feature is irrepairable at a level
the modder can not legally get at then it is BROKEN, ( unarmoured,
turnundead as examples). If some of the GMSTs are no longer
representative of the assumed skill base of the playing public,
those GMSTs can be adjusted with minimal bother.
Yes, I thought I understood the
distinction you were making. Thanks for drawing it bold again.
Nodding respectfully here to your expert knowledge about how it
works and why, I personally think that Mercantile is nonetheless a
'waste of rations' as currently configured. So, that takes me
back to - if it is reconfigurable, why not? [rhetorical, already
answered]
Quote:
Exactly correct. Why is it not in the undernourished NPC
mod? Feature creep avoidance and the desire to have this mod ONLY
address undernourished NPCs and some specific creatures. A
modular approach if you will. And I can always breakout the
Merchants from the undernourished mod and repackage them in a
mercantile improvements mod for folks who only want the Merc part
and not the combat/mage/creature part.
Understood. And "speaking strictly
for me", as the lady said, if it is that do-able I would rather not
wait for a larger economic model that might or might not be to
taste. I would be very pleased to see released, when you get
there, Nourished NPCs merchant/combat/mage/creature parts and
an accompanying modular esp that tweaks the GMSTs for Mercantile in
the manner you have described. Just a thought . .
As for
the rest of this excellent discussion:
Making money is never
going to be a problem for a character with some levels and skills
onboard because - regardless of what is broken, ill-configured,
fixed or adjusted - game quests and mod quests provide rewards,
usually tangible ones. That, if you will, is 'hard-coded' into the
gamer culture. Acceptance would help, a little.
Generating
income and barter should be challenges for a nearly penniless
deported, newly liberated Imperial tool. The principal difficulties
as I see them are:
- the diminishing returns curve to increasing Mercantile skill
levels, as that is the bug-a-boo that frustrates and encourages
one to slip into the cheats and power-game techniques for money,
in my view, and
- thereafter, income generation and barter get too easy too
early. A middle-level player rising in their house or faction
should be solvent and getting more solvent with each step
up the rung of Vvardenfell society but money should continue to be
a factor that requires prudent attention. It sounds as though
adjusting the merchant skill levels and the relevant GMSTs will do
just that.
First, an aside - 'trashcan' mods and
larger mods with trashcan features do exist. Players can discard
high-price 'drop items' free of charge or profit whilst not leaving
an item-cluttered game world simply by using a trashcan. The
Donation thread would also appear to offer some prospects for
helping the player voluntarily reduce their wealth to a reasonable
level.
And finally, septims are like that. Money makes money
- why should that be different in Morrowind? I would expect
an acknowledged arch hero/ine, master of all, slayer of demons
and demi-gods, highly successful builder of an economic base since
the moment they landed on the dock and general all-round high-speed
Paladin or scoundrel or something-in-between, to be rolling in
wealth to the extent that it is not even a consideration for them
[or whatever else is the medium of exchange in that society - it
could be status or face or reverence etc]. A hero/ine of that
stature would have it lavished upon them by supporters if they did
not already possess it. My thesis is that by this point in the game
the whole money issue can and perhaps should be ignored. People
who are scraping every centime out of every transaction at this
point are perhaps not on the middle ground. If someone wants to be
able to do that, fine. But I would not re-engineer anything to make
the wealthy Nerevarine situation go away. As pointed out above there
are already a number of realism and other mods that can or will,
when released, provide the macro level money sinks for those who
wish to have them.
These are very interesting changes that
are being considered. I reckon they will, when implemented,
dramatically improve the "replayability' aspect of Morrowind, as
Arsonide termed it.
-------------------- "And to everyone
seeing naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer
to all your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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Quote:
I would be very pleased to see released, when you get there,
Nourished NPCs merchant/combat/mage/creature parts and an
accompanying modular esp that tweaks the GMSTs for Mercantile in
the manner you have described. Just a thought . .
They will be smallish mods
with no texures or icons or music so not a strain to package several
in one pack with a decent ( but too often unread )
readme.
Quote:
thereafter, income generation and barter get too easy too
early. A middle-level player rising in their house or faction
should be solvent and getting more solvent with each step up the
rung of Vvardenfell society but money should continue to be a
factor that requires prudent attention. It sounds as though
adjusting the merchant skill levels and the relevant GMSTs will do
just that.
Tweaking the GMSTs and the
NPCs can delay the onset of the financial complaceny. Tweaking the
levelled lists can stop it. Nothing I can change can prevent a PC
from selling those saltrice stalks one at a time and powergaming the
underlying equation's cutoff point. So we shall just assume the
proper Monty Python attitude toward such folk and treat them with
disdain
Quote:
First, an aside - 'trashcan' mods and larger mods with
trashcan features do exist. Players can discard high-price 'drop
items' free of charge or profit whilst not leaving an
item-cluttered game world simply by using a trashcan.
Was not aware that anyone had
done this. A neat idea indeed.
Quote:
A hero/ine of that stature would have it lavished upon them by
supporters if they did not already possess it. My thesis is that
by this point in the game the whole money issue can and perhaps
should be ignored.
Indeed I suspect that by the
time they have defeated DU, the PC is rarely involved in any barter
at all. The barter necessity does fade away. In the game as in the
real world, the very poor and the very rich have very few real
issues with money. It is only those striving and stuck in the middle
who need to make the septims count. So, even if we added scripted
taxes to the game, the NerevarinePC doesn't even notice the tax bite
and if he needs money he has all those swords and armours on his
display dummies that he can sell, but those just off the boat and
climbing would notice them and have to react to them.
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Ronin49 |
Disciple |
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Reged: 03/08/04 |
Posts: 1792 |
Loc: Canada | |
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Agreed.
Trashcan by Phaedra at the Summit. "Add various
trash receptacles to the cities of Morrowind. Ever have items you
wanted to just get rid of? Put them in the garbage and they are gone
forever. Beneficial side effect, deleting unnecessary items could
improve your fps. Tribunal Required."
There were several
others mentioned I think on an excellent thread on this 'Trashcan'
subject in April or May 2004, started from an FPS discussion. It is
now gone or I cannot find it using the obvious keywords. Perhaps
someone else who recalls it may post
more.
-------------------- "And to everyone seeing
naked and headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all
your troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
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Iudas |
Disciple |
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Reged: 10/30/02 |
Posts: 1197 |
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TY It would be
called something obvious like trashcan if it had had a really
outrageous name I would have found it Shall
run it through the TESCS and then probably add it to my game, and to
my GADGETS OF MORROWIND list.
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