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Iudas
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WIP Undernourished NPC's
      #2906678 - 08/09/04 08:18 AM

In unmodded MW+Trib+BM, there are many NPC's who possess "goodies" but who are completely undernourished for the goodies they possess.
Examples: The lady sorceress who has Chrysamere has a LongBlade skill of 12. Her ability to use Chrysamere is non existent.
The Skel War Wizard with the Vampiric ring has no offensive spells
Sorkvild the Raven has the lovely Masque of Clavicus Vile and no heavy armour skills.
Mentor's ring has no protectors and is in an trapped urn that can be opened with a bent probe.
Berengeval with the amulet of flesh made whole is a pushover
50 of the merchants with bartergold greater than 500 septims have minimal mercantile and speechcraft skills.
So far, thanks to work by Wakim and myself, I have a list of about 156 characters whose skill levels are mismatched to their "goodies" or the amount of money they have.
DagothUr has spells with 0 duration
If you have found a character in unmodded MW+Trib+BM who fits this definition I would like to know about him or her.
Consider this a continuation of work started two years ago and a WIP. The objective will be to modify the assigned spells or the skill levels of these NPC's ( and creatures ) to more accurately coincide with the goodies they are protecting from the ravishings of the PC.
Some goodies ( the thief's ring and some others ) are just laying around waiting for the PC to stumble on them ... these are so far as I can tell intentional and should probably not be addressed.
So if you have a favourite mismatch between goodie and NPC let's hear it.

Edited by Iudas (08/09/04 03:44 PM)

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Ronin49
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2907904 - 08/09/04 03:22 PM

Iudas - This looks like an astonishingly good idea and I am glad to see you continuing with it. [*Wondering why it has not been done already.*]

Perfect world stuff perhaps but I look forward to the day when all the basic bug fixes, tweaks, typo corrections and sensible NPC adjustments like these are compiled into one clean and deconflicted mod.


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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2907977 - 08/09/04 03:36 PM

Amulet of Shadows: you can get it at lvl 1! give the guy with the bow at least the ability to paralyze you for a bit.

which also leads me to the question: what about overnourished PCs? Ra'Virr selling demon tantos - I always considered that a major unblancing issue. Which mod addresses this? yours too? wakims?

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Ronin49]
      #2908000 - 08/09/04 03:41 PM

Probably hasn't been done because it is a lot of work to do it and not break something else. And probably because noone is left running un-modded MW+Trib+BM. . And mostly because I doubt that there can be agreement on what would constitute a proper change to the NPC's involved.
Just using the Chrysamere example: the holder is a sorceress so should I beef up her sorcery and give her some serious spell power, and spells or should I go with the dialogue flow and boost her Long Sword capability so she can actually use Chrysamere? And to what level do I boost her? 20, 25, 35? What level makes her reasonable to whom? I have already decided as an operational rule to try to err on the side of over strengthening them without making them stronger than such serious foes in the game as Helseth.
If nothing else, it gives me an excuse to replay MW and the expansions without any other mods ( except for the unofficial patch ).

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2908073 - 08/09/04 03:59 PM

Yeah Synette and her girlfriend are now quite a bit more capable.
The mod is not yet addressing NPC's who sell over-strong items.
Figured to start with creatures and NPC's that are too weak for the goodies they are protecting or too dumb for the money they have.
I am just trying to carry on some of the work that Wakim did that was never released.

Edited by Iudas (08/09/04 03:59 PM)

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GreenEyedYam
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: Ronin49]
      #2908098 - 08/09/04 04:03 PM

Quote:


Perfect world stuff perhaps but I look forward to the day when all the basic bug fixes, tweaks, typo corrections and sensible NPC adjustments like these are compiled into one clean and deconflicted mod.





How about the day when those things are taken care of by an official patch?

All of these issues have long been common knowledge on the forums owned by the game developers, yet we have gone through several patches, 2 expansions, and a couple more patches, yet a ton of glaring errors have been ignored and left to the community to fix.

It's curious that a game as flawed as this one has managed to generate such a vibrant community and loyal following.

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GreenEyedYam
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2908116 - 08/09/04 04:06 PM

I almost forgot to mention the mod...

Nice idea, and it sounds like it should be a big improvement to the quality of the quests.

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: GreenEyedYam]
      #2908181 - 08/09/04 04:22 PM

Well the idea has been sitting around for two years. I expect that we have seen the last "official" patch for TES3 with the 1.61820 patch released in July of 2003. And that is another thing about doing this mod, changing NPC's has a really good chance of fubaring any quests involving them, and has a really good chance of creating more uber-trainers. So I expect it to be a bit of a slog.

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wakim
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: GreenEyedYam]
      #2909230 - 08/09/04 08:31 PM

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for life.


"How about the day when those things are taken care of by an official patch?"

Bethesda may not have taken the time to teach anyone to fish, but they included the pole, line, hook, and bait when their customers first got their fish. For many the diversion of "modding" the game has replaced the diversion of "playing" the game. Since TESCS is the same tool that Bethesda uses for altering the non-hardcoded portion of Morrowind, there is only the difference of name in their releasing an "official patch" and someone releasing a "mod." With some reflection there can be discerned several reasons why Bethesda would not release an official patch that addressed the same material as an available mod.



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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: wakim]
      #2911256 - 08/10/04 07:49 AM

Quote:

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for life.




Give a man a poorly prepared puffer fish and he will be fed for the rest of his life.
( cunningly disguised 24 hour bump )

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Zriza
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2911331 - 08/10/04 08:42 AM

I think it's a good idea. I haven't been around on the game enough to make suggestions about who/what to change, but I think it makes sense for it to be harder to get uber gear. I think a good line to follow when changing them is make them more powerful in the skills that go with the character (ex make the sorcerer have more powerful magic or more magicka so she doesn't need to melee with the sword she can't use, etc).

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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2911355 - 08/10/04 09:01 AM

Excuse me for jumping in again

Some things that spoil the game in the beginning:

* Fix the bug where the Orc in Caldera only complains when you take away his armor but doesn't act accordingly (that is, rip off your head, or, at least, report you to the guards)

* Delay Dark Brotherhood attacks or maybe, include that one mod that gives the assasins more appropriate armor in the beginning (i.e. Chitin).

* Four Words: Boots of Blinding Speed
dunno how to fix this, maybe make Pemenie play tag with you hehe.



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Formerly_NuclearDope
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2911412 - 08/10/04 09:33 AM

maybe you could make the ordinators at the vaults in vivec stronger as they are just ordinary ordinators which seems wierd since they are protecting thousands and thousands of gold in armor weapons and jewels

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2911637 - 08/10/04 11:02 AM

Boots of Blinding Speed : Pemenie is being made a bit more of a challenge but the boots themselves are not going to be messed with. Other modders have made changes to the boots ( usually to make them more PC friendly and a decent mage can negate the Blind effect anyhow )
There is a mod available that reduces the annoying frequency of DB attacks and strips them of almost everything except their helms.
Not familiar with the ORC situation can you give me the NPC name?

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Formerly_NuclearDope]
      #2911651 - 08/10/04 11:07 AM

They are on the list. There are issues with changing ordinators and guards and keeping compatibility with some of the most popular and best done mods available. So this is a tread lightly area.
One certain thing is that the merged objects function from TesTool is going to be really necessary for this mod to "play nicely" with other mods. On these ordinators, some increase in their AI to make them more antagonistic would not be out of order.

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werewolf4life
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2911667 - 08/10/04 11:14 AM

vivec is weak for a god i would like to see him incinerate me aor disembowl me with a spell
also my character is a freaking evil monster

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: werewolf4life]
      #2911759 - 08/10/04 11:50 AM

I don't really have a good idea on what to do with Vivec and Almalexia.
At some point any PC is going to be able to wipe the floor with them without breaking a sweat. Likewise with Divayth Fyr and Dagoth Ur and his assorted subDags ... they are all eventually very wimpy compared to what the PC can become.
Probably not the suggestion you want, but; replay the game with a new character who is completely different in skillset or mindset from the current character you have and save your current "freaking evil monster" somewhere so you can use him in Wizard's Island or whatever other difficult and demanding mods are released in the future?
Somewhere in these forums I read that the top Level that the PC can obtain ( without the use of skillcap removers ) is in the mid 70's. Given the generally dullfork AI, it really takes an NPC or Creature to be about 3 times the level of the PC for the battles to be interesting ( on the average difficulty level ).

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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2912092 - 08/10/04 01:40 PM

Orc in Caldera: crate on 2nd floor contains orcish cuirass, pauldron and graeves, the owner urul gro lag is placed in the basement. owner maybe should be duma gro lag who stand right next to the crate, just to prevent a lvl1 getting 3000+ gold by going one floor lower and selling armor to our scamp friend

About the BOBS: I agree, they shouldn't be changed. But just taking Pemenie for a stroll, that's no adequate quest for such a rare and wondrous thing. Maybe she should have you take her to Dagon Fell instead of Gnaar Mook anyway, I hope you hinted at some change like this.

Sorry if I'm not 100% on topic of your mod, which, I guess, is to balance NPCs, but:

How to prevent ppl stealing glass weapons and whatnot with just a scroll of ondusi?!

How to prevent a lvl 2 character from creating a locksplitter amulet with open door 100?

And while we're at it: undernourished traps can you make them, like, deadly? or at least, irritating (drain strength 100 hehe)?

All in all my thinking boils down to this: how to slow down the vicious circle: more money - more powerful items. I fear the game (and the game economy) is too broken to ever be able to fix it all. But every step in the direction that it's fun again to mix some potions or hunt kagoutis for their hides just to make some bucks to be able to buy that silver longsword is the right step.

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Ronin49
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPCs [Re: Iudas]
      #2912116 - 08/10/04 01:48 PM

Quote:

Somewhere in these forums I read that the top Level that the PC can obtain ( without the use of skillcap removers ) is in the mid 70's.




This is not my experience. Accepting you use trainers, which I understand many purist players do not, and have a relevant attribute boosting artifact, you can continue to boost PC Level seemingly indefinitely, without otherwise touching skillcaps, though skills do remain topped out at 100.
Without trainer use that may be so.

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VenomByte
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2912451 - 08/10/04 03:19 PM

Quote:

Orc in Caldera: crate on 2nd floor contains orcish cuirass, pauldron and graeves, the owner urul gro lag is placed in the basement. owner maybe should be duma gro lag who stand right next to the crate, just to prevent a lvl1 getting 3000+ gold by going one floor lower and selling armor to our scamp friend

About the BOBS: I agree, they shouldn't be changed. But just taking Pemenie for a stroll, that's no adequate quest for such a rare and wondrous thing. Maybe she should have you take her to Dagon Fell instead of Gnaar Mook anyway, I hope you hinted at some change like this.

Sorry if I'm not 100% on topic of your mod, which, I guess, is to balance NPCs, but:

How to prevent ppl stealing glass weapons and whatnot with just a scroll of ondusi?!

How to prevent a lvl 2 character from creating a locksplitter amulet with open door 100?

And while we're at it: undernourished traps can you make them, like, deadly? or at least, irritating (drain strength 100 hehe)?

All in all my thinking boils down to this: how to slow down the vicious circle: more money - more powerful items. I fear the game (and the game economy) is too broken to ever be able to fix it all. But every step in the direction that it's fun again to mix some potions or hunt kagoutis for their hides just to make some bucks to be able to buy that silver longsword is the right step.




There is a Thief Experience Overhaul mod which does several of these things:

1) It makes open spells *much* more expensive. No more low level mages wwho can open everything. It'll now cost a fortune for an enchantment able to do the same, too.
2) It makes traps much more deadly - quite capable of killing a PC.
3) Traps are much harder to open - in vanilla Morrowind a security skill of 5 and a bent probe can diarm any trap. Not so any more. Combined with point 2, this makes traps actually a serious problem.

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VenomByte
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2912487 - 08/10/04 03:28 PM

Quote:


* Delay Dark Brotherhood attacks or maybe, include that one mod that gives the assasins more appropriate armor in the beginning (i.e. Chitin).





I wrote a mod which replaces the dark brotherhood armour with 'brotherhood novice' armour as soon as they die. The brotherhood novice armour is slightly superior to chitin in cost and effectiveness, but not much.

The advantage of doing it this way is that the assassins still have all the defensive bonuses of normal dark brotherhood armour, but the player looting the corpse doesn't have their game unbalanced as they only find very cheap and fairly innefective brotherhood novice armour.
Since both armors use the same models, this changeover is also undetectable

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GreenEyedYam
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Re: WIP Undernourished PC's [Re: wakim]
      #2912678 - 08/10/04 04:46 PM

Quote:

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for life.


"How about the day when those things are taken care of by an official patch?"

Bethesda may not have taken the time to teach anyone to fish, but they included the pole, line, hook, and bait when their customers first got their fish. For many the diversion of "modding" the game has replaced the diversion of "playing" the game. Since TESCS is the same tool that Bethesda uses for altering the non-hardcoded portion of Morrowind, there is only the difference of name in their releasing an "official patch" and someone releasing a "mod." With some reflection there can be discerned several reasons why Bethesda would not release an official patch that addressed the same material as an available mod.






Wow, that was patronizing. "With some reflection" my ass...

I'm aware of the wonders of the CS and I'm aware of the existence of mods that fix some of Bethesda's screw-ups. I'm also aware that there will be no further patches from Bethesda. Furthermore I realize that there are people out there who use the CS as deftly as any of the Devs ever did and that these people are totally capable of adding any polish that the original releases lacked. No reflection is necessary, thanks.

That said, I'm fairly certain that the purpose of the CS was not to allow users to fix official mistakes. The mistakes that have been fixed by unofficial mods were common knowledge prior to the expansions and any of the patches. They should have been fixed officially, not because users couldn't do it, but because they shouldn't have to.

MW is a good game with a great CS, but the fact remains that Bethesda is as guilty of putting out flawed products as any other developer, and if users point out the flaws on official forums they ought to fix them.

As far as this "give a man a fish" crap, that has nothing to do with anything, aside from establishing a snotty tone. First off, nothing was given , something was sold . Second off, the CS was ostensibly made to allow users to mod their games, not fix the original copy.

Either way, this mod sounds like a great idea.

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2913079 - 08/10/04 06:27 PM

Orcs in Caldera easy solution thank you.
Still working on the BOB situation
Easy theft: use LDone's thief improvement mod to make theft a lot less easy and a lot more rewarding. In a few specific cases it may be necessary to increase the lock level on a chest or the trap type to a more deadly one.
Locksplitter 100: No way to prevent that without redoing the whole enchanting subsystem or arbitrarily removing spell effects. The first is beyond the scope of this mod and the second is arbitrary.
Wimpy traps: Install LDone's thief improvement mod. It actually makes traps kill, locks difficult and sneaking a lot more than just putting a stack o dimes on the CTRL key and going to a movie.

Improving the economy is another WIP that I have been puttering with for a while. What cant be fixed is enchanting it is the basic money pump and most of it is hardcoded below the level at which TESCS operates. So I can modify a lot of the economic behaviour but eventually it comes down to how a player wants to play the game. Got to be room for the PowerGamer, the Console user, the general part timer and the devoted Role Player too.
But right now I am just concentrating on NPC who are either undernourished for the goods they are supposed to protect or too stupid for the money they have to buy with. Other things like correcting the ownership of a chest fit nicely into this. Changing that chest ownership is not going to hose anybody else's mod or any quests but it removes a logical flaw in the gameplay.
Now about Creeper and Mudcrab. I already know that I am going to include a very small, separate esp that does exactly one thing and that is to remove these two guys from the game. Not going to remove them in the NPC and Creatures Corrections Mod because some folks love these two little jokes and other folks hate them. Let the user decide about them.
In another thread a Hunter's guild mod is being discussed. And there are several mods that take off from hunting and are quite fun to play.

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPCs [Re: Ronin49]
      #2913091 - 08/10/04 06:32 PM

Thank you for the clarification Ronin.
I should have said that without resorting to playing the game engine instead of the game, I believe that when you top all your skills at 100 your max level is somewhere in the 70's. Aftifacts and such obviously push levels past that and indeed there are creatures and NPCs in TESCS with some impressive levels.

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: VenomByte]
      #2913108 - 08/10/04 06:39 PM

One of the things that needs addressed is the disproportionate amount of scrolls of unhinging and scrolls of Ephygi's gem Feeder that show up in barrels and inventories and on desks during the first several days of play around Seyda Neen and environs. I started a new game the other day and by the end of game day three I had 74 scrolls of Ondusi's unhinging. Every level 40 and below lock was .... poofed. So it is time to look into the levelled lists a wee bit and find out why so many of these scrolls show up so early.

LDone's Thief Experience Overhaul: Don't Leave the C&EO office without it. ( likewise Wakim's Game Improvements 9 modular )

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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2913511 - 08/10/04 08:33 PM

Off topic...

What I was driving at: Definition.

...and who is it that makes that definition. You. I. We do a poll in which only the people associated with this forum participate?

My feeling is that it IS there for us to discover, but how do we go about that in a reasonable manner that "carries" the majority of the players (and modders) along with it?

I haven't read the thread, but how the hell ThePal got away with his patch mod without discernable disagreement is beyond me.

Reason I've had such a quandry about the thread I started...

As many opinions as posts... Impossible to reach agreement?

Without authority, we go nowhere. With authority we become authoritarian...

Suggestions anyone???

On topic: Umbra should only relinquish his weapons/armor if bested in melee combat...

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Grumpy]
      #2915394 - 08/11/04 07:45 AM

Not offtopic at all. Eventually somebody does something one way and somebody else does it another and still another person tries a third path. And the market decides which path is better advertized or better implemented or closer to what fits the user's conceptions.
Bethesda could be the only arbiter and only if they make changes below the level that the TESCS operates at. Sweet Anarchy prevails and is the magic key to the longetivity of TES3. MW can be anything a willing player wants it to be. With a lot of work MW can become a similacrum of Middle Earth or Star Wars or Thief3 or just about any other series or fantasy the various users want; this mod is just an attempt to make MW a better MW.
So I am doing a mod that has a limited aim. It has a logical basis ( as I define the logic ). It involves a ( mostly ) consistent set of small tweaks to various NPC's based on the ingame unmodded value of items they are protecting. It will never be used by The Majority of MW players and probably not by even a small minority. When it is done it will satisfy my need to have the game make logical fantasy sense to me. If my perception has any applicability beyond my own mind then some other users will garner some small degree of pleasure from using it; if not not.
Without external authority, there is freedom; with it there is subservience and limited replayability and short shelf life.
How did thePal do what he did? He asked for broken scripts and spelling errors and dialogue fubars and he corrected them one at a time, His mod is the polish that Bethesda could have done had they had the time and budget and inclination, the sort of labour of love that does not need anyone's elses approval. He did not need to worry about agreement because if a script is broken or a word is spelled incorrectly or a journal entry is connected to the wrong dialogue no disagreement is possible; there is sits, an error and errors get corrected. Some things feel wrong like Umbra the uberwarrior not being uber, like the vampirewarwizard not having any offensive spells; it doesn't mean that they are objective errors. So unlike ThePal's mod, which corrected objective errors, this mod is about making some things that feel wrong to me, feel right; and in the process it may correct some objective errors like a container with the wrong ownership in Ghorak Manor
How did Wakim do what he did? He looked at a situation that made no logical sense and took the time to reverse engineer the equations to find the tweak values that would make an illogical situation come closer to logical behaviour. Likewise LDones with his Thief mods, likewise Beancounter with his study of alchemy.
No Poll has ever given something new to the world. Polls just allow one to rearrange the existing seating based on the sample of willing responders. Examine the premise, why should we believe that there is a "bestset" of mods and then attempt to carry the majority of players along? Do the majority of players even use mods? Any bestset today will be invalid tomorrow when a better or different or more outlandish or more loreish mod comes along, do we then repoll at regular intervals, popularity polls? Everyone loves face and body replacers right? No. Everybody loves Giants and Morrowind Advanced Right? No.
I think your next to the last line is exactly backwards...Without authority we actually go places. With authority we go nowhere new.

Umbra is on the list, he is undernourished for the sword he has and easy pray to most spellcasters and his sword's given enchantment is a spellcaster's delight. I have been thinking of giving him Umbra's curse a 100% reflect curse and a small dialogue change to warn spellcasters that he has been cursed. Wouldn't want to toast all the Mages and sorcerors and battleMages and such like lusting for that soultrapping sword.

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Re: WIP Undernourished NPCs [Re: Iudas]
      #2915527 - 08/11/04 08:55 AM

Quote:

I should have said that without resorting to playing the game engine instead of the game, I believe that when you top all your skills at 100 your max level is somewhere in the 70's.




Hmmm . . . I appreciate very much your detailed knowlege of the game, the insightful commentary you have brought to several threads and the NPC nourishing project you are working on. Seems to me though that using artifacts and capabilities that exist in the unmodified game is not necessarily "playing the game engine" as you put it but rather simply playing the game in a different way than you might choose to do.

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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPCs [Re: Ronin49]
      #2915551 - 08/11/04 09:11 AM

Quote:

... not necessarily "playing the game engine" as you put it but rather simply playing the game in a different way than you might choose to do.



Agreed.
That is an exemplar of the reason I am taking so long to do any mods. I enjoy many other modder's mods that do not "tread lightly" on the basic MW components; but for my own work I prefer to tread lightly so as not to break things. Not so much a purist but a minimalist ( or just a lazy sob). If I can tweak one GMST to achieve a goal or write the most impressive script, I opt for the GMST.

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Ronin49
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPCs [Re: Iudas]
      #2915570 - 08/11/04 09:23 AM

Quote:

. . . for my own work I prefer to tread lightly so as not to break things. Not so much a purist but a minimalist (or just a lazy sob). If I can tweak one GMST to achieve a goal or write the most impressive script, I opt for the GMST.



Agreed. And just one reason of several reasons why I reckon your 'NPC nourishment project' is likely to bear truly beneficial fruit, or at least fruits that are to my taste. That and some serious doubt about the "lazy" part. Thanks.

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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: Iudas]
      #2915778 - 08/11/04 10:45 AM

Quote:


... So unlike ThePal's mod, which corrected objective errors, this mod is about making some things that feel wrong to me, feel right...




Yes, but yours and wakims approach still has somthing in common with the unofficial patch: You aim to make Morrowind work as it should have worked from the beginning. I guess you have the vote of a vast majority of players that those things you mention do not "feel right".

So, in my book, it's no mod. It's more of a game improvment/completion/patch kinda thingie. No mod because there are no new landscapes, NPCs, quests, armors or weapons. My wish would be that your WIP (well, the REL actually) would come in a bundle with thepals and wakims work. I'd call it the final patch

thx to all ppl that hinted me at the various thiefs and DB mods, much appreciated

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One short leg [Re: ]
      #2915813 - 08/11/04 10:56 AM

It is to my own disbelief that I allow myself to be drawn into this topic. I do so admitting ignorance of recent Morrowind particulars, such as who ThePal is, and so on, but I will direct myself to what I hope to show are the pertinent generalities.

I have seen many searches made for what seems apt to term a “best-set” of mods; either from a desire to avoid mod-to-mod conflicts, or to avoid having to search all over to find the “good” mods, or what-have-you. All these attempts to find the best-set of mods fail because they begin without first answering the question of What is best? Without first knowing the answer to this question how can one expect to find out what mods fall into the category of best? It would be like trying to sort out the red marbles from a bag of red and green marbles without knowing the difference between red and green. Without knowledge of what is best such mod lists become instead “What I like.” Who can argue with someone who says I like green marbles, or I like red marbles? There will never be consensus on things that are mere likes and dislikes, and thus the mod search ultimately devolves into pointless bickering over why my likes are better than your likes.

Fortunately, the things that are important are not subject to likes and dislikes. It is meaningless to make the statement, “I dislike oxygen,” or “I like gravity.” These things are beyond the realm of preference to address. Preference only possesses importance when there exists no other compelling reason for a thing.

Knowing the purpose of a thing will allow one to know what is best to achieve that end. If a game is a thing whose purpose is diversion achieved by a contest of skill, then those things that achieve this are best in a game. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t someone who will think that a game’s purpose is something else, just as one may use a book to prop up a table - it isn’t a book’s purpose to do so and hence misuses the book.

The objection may here be raised that what is a contest of skill is actually defined by the challenge that it presents and thus will vary from person to person, and therefore suggest that this introduces subjectivity back into the question; consider if this were true: For instance, Lance Armstrong would not be challenged by what may well prove beyond the ability of you or I to surmount. Failing to best Lance Armstrong in a bicycle race – failing in a contest of skill – doesn’t mean that it wasn’t challenging, just as winning a contest doesn’t mean that it was challenging. What is challenging is independent from what is a contest; Lance Armstrong isn’t much challenged by racing against you, but it is still a contest that determines the bicycling skill of the competitors when you race against him.

In a contest of skill the property of challenge introduces a new element. Consider that it is the qualities, or skills, that Lance Armstrong possesses in his sport that make him a champion. One is not a champion for overcoming an ant, but by showing himself to possess the best of skill. As shipped, Morrowind required essentially no skill to overcome and thus did not allow for excellence to differentiate its players – it lacked challenge. If the challenge that an individual overcomes is what allows one to become a champion, then reducing the challenge necessarily reduces one’s ability to become a champion – it diminishes one’s ability to achieve excellence in that environment. A contest without challenge is a contest without the capacity to distinguish excellence. Will anyone seriously argue that what lacks excellence can ever be what is best?.

Morrowind does, however, posses a splendid graphical environment, and other qualities (including the latent potential realized through the malleability achieved with the construction set) that provide diversion in ways other than those that pertain to the contest of skill that serve to define a game. However, if one wishes to make a game better, then it must be by making it better as a game – a contest of skill – and not by making it better in what it is not, say, as a breakfast cereal; a mod that adds nutritional content to Morrowind when served with milk in a bowl would make Morrowind more nutritious, but not a better game qua game. Likewise, a mod that adds new, or different graphics and visual art does not make Morrowind a better game; it may add to the diversion that Morrowind can offer, but not to the contest of skill that is what defines a game – if one wanted diversion by viewing graphics or visual art he would be better served by visiting an art gallery. The graphics of Morrowind are not essential to itself as a game, but an unessential property (consider text based adventure games). You may like or dislike Morrowind’s graphics, but they are unessential to it as a game, and hence as a game they do not make it better or worse. Please understand I am not arguing for my like or dislike of graphical enhancements for Morrowind (for the record, I can be just as entertained and distracted by eye candy as anyone), I am arguing for what is essential to Morrowind.

I thank Iudas for tolerating my here addressing things in general and the definition of what a game is and does; in fine: a diversion that is achieved by a contest of skill, in which, if excellence is to be achieved, must provide a challenge. And providing a challenge is the reason for nourishing those under-fed NPCs, no?


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Iudas
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Re: WIP Undernourished NPC's [Re: ]
      #2915958 - 08/11/04 11:34 AM

Should is one of those words that gives me the willies.
Morrowind worked the way the Devs and Bethesda wanted it to work when it was released. They patched it twice to catch errors that impeded it from working in places. They added two expansions because it was a very successful game in the market. They patched again to bring it in line with what they wanted it to be. And smarter than that, they created an editor with enough power to do serious things and enough flaws and errors to entertain and enchant in its own right.
ThePal did what Bethesda could have done had they felt it was worth their while to do it. And they still could surprise us all with another patch ( I am not holding my breath waiting for it ) that would fix some outstanding flaws at the coding level where the Editor does not tread.
And to be honest about things, whether the vast majority of players or 0 players use my mod after it is finished is not the criteria. Morrowind diverts me like no other game in the last many years ( I have not started Doom3 yet ) so this mod is my way of making my diversion more enjoyable to me.
I have three other mods in various states of disrepair ... one fixes the MW economy in ways that make logical sense to me. The other two add new quests, new NPC's, new joinable factions and all the other goodies. If I am ever motivated to start the drudgery of dialogue, then eventually it will be possible to enjoy a full fledged social/economic class war on MW complete with nasty guerilla warfare type weapons; and also possible to play as a Tax Collector/Tax Farmer in an enhanced C&EO faction. And everybody hates the taxman.
Meanwhile I am looking at this Imperial who absconded with the Lord's Mail. I think I have found another wimp. And this V Vatinius guy .... His stats are going to have to be boosted a bit he ends up with Chrysamere and The Lord's Mail and then I have to duel with him.
He should at least have the credentials to use the armour and weapons he has that I want.


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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: wakim]
      #2915975 - 08/11/04 11:39 AM

Slowly, slowly, step by step and inch by inch you are being drawn back to the fold.

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bl4k3
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Re: One short leg [Re: Iudas]
      #2915998 - 08/11/04 11:46 AM

What about the Quarra Ancient Vampires? are you going to make them seem more... Ancient? the way a super strong immortal vampire should be?

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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: bl4k3]
      #2916021 - 08/11/04 11:56 AM

I have not yet gotten to the vampires ( in thinking about it, I don't think I have ever even played as a vamp yet ). I will put them on the list. If it is a matter of their appearance, then no I will not be doing anything to them. If it is a matter of their dialogues, then again no I will not be adjusting that. I believe Cortex has a mod that does wonderous things to the believability and power of vampires, but mucking about with the default vamps could muck with his mod and that is to be avoided.
If some of the quarra vampires appear to have skillsets too low for some item they are guarding or involved with then I will try to adjust that.

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Grumpy
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Re: One short leg [Re: Iudas]
      #2917747 - 08/11/04 07:55 PM

This is an enjoyable thread...

...and I'm going to disagree with Wakim's interpretation of "game". Particularly with "this" game:

There is a big word that I like to use that I don't understand (and please don't try and explain it to me because I won't understand that either...). Word is Gestalt. I am vaguely familiar with who he was, and maybe even a bit of his philosophy, but the point I would make is that you cannot mearly say that this game's success is based solely on it's competitive nature. It's success, as in all things, is based on it's Gestalt (I hope that makes sense...), or the overall "feel" of the thing.

The human mind percieves things dynamically whether we like it that way or not (or whether we can comprehend the information that is constantly flooding our senses at any given time). This screen I'm looking at is a perfect example: Windows succeded because instead of sitting here looking at a black screen with white text on it, I now have all these pretty arrow things and icons and fancy backrounds, etc... It is the "Gestalt" of the thng that draws me in. Granted, when in combat (I used to wrestle), your senses are directed to a single end, but MW is not constant combat. It is much more, and I think that is as much responsible for it's success as is it's "competitive" aspect.

Wakim: I know this is not your sole point of view, and I do not accuse you of that, but in relation to what I said earlier, my thinking is that this "Gestalt" can be achieved. It is Iudas' intent to do that with his improvements... Hell, most any mod made is an attempt in one fasion or another to improve the thing, but what I'm driving at is how do we hit that "sweet spot" in relation to these "fix" types of mods. The devs did it in respect to the "Gestalt" of the game, so why can't we in our endeavors to improve it?

Point is, we already have to a great degree, but how do we "define" that and consolidate it, and then make it acceptable to those individuals who love this game and want to see it the best it can be?

Not talking about a "Best of" list here, in the same manner that Iudas is not talking of fixing things to HIS liking (whether he wants to admit that or not...), but fixing things the way they "should" (sorry Iudas) be fixed. We KNOW what that is. We just have problems "defining" it...

We're all basically headed in that direction. Can't we kind of carpool a little?

On topic: (promised myself I wouldn't post this without something on topic) Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama cave...

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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: Grumpy]
      #2917879 - 08/11/04 08:28 PM

Quote:

On topic: (promised myself I wouldn't post this without something on topic) Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama cave...


I know the devs put a freebie ebony sword on the odai plateau as a sorta bennie for doing the walkabout thing. Which Kwama cave has a unguarded daedric laying around for the picking?
And of course the follow up question.... Guard it with an appropriate character or remove it to the possession of an appropriate character, or just remove it or just leave it as another not so small reward from the devs for going spelunking?

Quote:

Not talking about a "Best of" list here, in the same manner that Iudas is not talking of fixing things to HIS liking (whether he wants to admit that or not...), but fixing things the way they "should" (sorry Iudas) be fixed. We KNOW what that is. We just have problems "defining" it...



I shall endeavour to continue to refuse to admit that I am in any way trying to make MW as it "should" be. I shall remain adamant that I am trying to make the game more "fantasy logical" within the parameters of the game and its gestalt as I understand it.
Let me try with this analogy, some things in MW feel like a sore thumb, not many things however; and that is why the things that do feel like a sore thumb are really really noticeable. So all I am trying to do here is reduce the swelling.


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Ronin49
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Re: One short leg [Re: Grumpy]
      #2918000 - 08/11/04 08:56 PM

Shorter by a head!
Quote:

Freebie Daedric dai-katana in the Kwama cave...


Damn! I just knew some 'kind soul' would mention that little toad-stabber.

On topic, sort of:

In parallel but not blind to each other - Sort out the NPC nourishment, Thepal is sorting out his next version, sort out the fixes he is not planning to address, sort out the typo fixes (two extant mods plus some in Thepal's).

Then, combine those near-finished components together into one 'silver bullet' patch.

Leave Wakim's and Aerelorn's mods separate - player's choice when or if to use, just as it would be for other balancing or economic adjustment plug-ins.

Just my two cents.

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Edited by Ronin49 (08/11/04 09:09 PM)

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Grumpy
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Re: One short leg [Re: Iudas]
      #2918021 - 08/11/04 09:01 PM

Maesa-Shammus Egg Mine

Found on "warrior dead 02"

Did a quick text search. I see no quests associated with this... As I remember, it's pretty much a romp in the park to get this most coveted weapon of the game... Total of 8 blighted, leveled kwama types to be dealt with is all.


"Sore thumb" analogy accepted...

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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: Grumpy]
      #2918175 - 08/11/04 09:48 PM

Ok let me take you through a walk in my brain here.
Dead warrior in a kwama cave with a really fine weapon.
1) there is an unknown backstory here of course: what was he looking for, what did he stumble upon that was strong enough to kill him or did the blight do him in? and why did it leave that sword behind?
First thought is some sort of deadoth or clannfear or atronach since none of them use weapons did him in and left the sword. And they might still be somewhere waiting for the next sucker.

Second thought, he is bait and I am the rat walking into the trap.
Some human warrior or wizard did him in and left him as an attractive temptation for me.

Third thought, he has been dead a long time and forgotten, the sword is just a bennie brought to me by good fortune and wandering feet. The blight killed him and no sword could have stopped the blight. So his death is my good fortune and I shall hoist a Flin in his memory some day. Could even use taking the sword to trigger a mini quest that would be closed if I ever ran across his SO and told her about finding him. This would allow me to fill in the backstory and remove some mystery.

Fourth thought, rig the sword to award me with a nasty curse or even one of the blight diseases when I take it. a trip to the healer some money out of pocket for healing and I have a clean sword.

5th thought tone down the sword to something less attractive maybe silver maybe dweem. MW has a lot of dead adventurers in a lot of strange places and he is just another poor sap who died on the road. There but for the grace of ALMSIVI go I.

6th thought 8 blighted kwama hmmm maybe there is a dagoth or ascended sleeper or such like around in hiding maybe that is who is waiting for me to take the sword.

7th thought resurrect the guy, give him a bad case of the blight ( think Din on a bad day and with a really bad attitude ) and some stats to make his having and handling the sword believable.

Now multiply this little exercise in schizophrenia by ( almost 200 so far ) True some of them are much easier the living ones who are just starkly sore thumbs inept but ones like this can have me pondering for hours on how to nudge this into a seamless and acceptable thing.
Right this minute I like 7 or 4 and am not averse to 3 or 5. 4 because there are so few curses used in game and because a little paranoia in the PC is a good thing. 7 because a mighty sword ought not to fall without a mighty battle. and 3 because every day is somebodies birthday.
And five because that does the least change to the game.
All of which gives me a really bad idea for a new class The Ditherer born under the sign of the Procrastinator and gifted with a complete set of the Bipolar armour.


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Grumpy
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Re: One short leg [Re: Iudas]
      #2918437 - 08/11/04 10:49 PM

Quote:

5th thought tone down the sword to something less attractive maybe silver maybe dweem. MW has a lot of dead adventurers in a lot of strange places and he is just another poor sap who died on the road. There but for the grace of ALMSIVI go I.





Wormgods approach. He sapped all of the Daedric stuff from defeated whatevers in MWA and replaced them with silver whatevers instead...

Quote:

7th thought resurrect the guy, give him a bad case of the blight ( think Din on a bad day and with a really bad attitude ) and some stats to make his having and handling the sword believable.





That one doesn't sound bad. I remember a movie called "Jeremia Johnson", and in that there was an allusion to a fellow that lived with a cantankerous bear. He was totally loony. Maybe this guy has the hots for the Kwama Queen...

Obviously #5 for the sake of keeping the game somewhat leveled, but the downside to this is that this is the only Daedric dai-katana available other than two others: One owned by Bolvyn Venim and the other owned by Llaro Llethiri. Venim: Level 20 Archmaster of the Redoran, and Llethiri: Level 24 and one of the Dren Plantaion thugs.

Listed in the editor: One in the Kwama cave; two mentioned above, and the others are in the leveled lists (randoms). (original MW here)

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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: Grumpy]
      #2919696 - 08/12/04 07:59 AM

Quote:

One owned by Bolvyn Venim and the other owned by Llaro Llethiri. Venim: Level 20 Archmaster of the Redoran, and Llethiri: Level 24 and one of the Dren Plantaion thugs



These two are already "on the list" for various reasons. As is correcting the faction membership of 4 of the people at the dren camp who are members of the thieves guild for no reason.
The dead guy went on the list last night, have not reached a decision on him yet, leaning toward leaving him there with his sword but having the effect of searching his body give the PC a nasty dose of the Blight A long walk back from that cave to a healer for the unprepped PC or a short swig on a potion for the prepped adventurer.


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Iudas
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Re: One short leg [Re: Iudas]
      #2924075 - 08/13/04 09:51 AM

Update:
Have about 200 undernourished NPC's and underprotected "items of value" to handle so far.
Additions: incorrect NPC's, NPC's who are either given the wrong faction membership or not given any membership when they should have it. About 25 of them so far, mostly Camonna Tong, East Empire CO, and C&EO.
Have found 1 weapon that appears to have been made for a specific minor quest character but was never given to her and one weapon that appears nowhere ingame ( Axe of the Queen of Bats ) unsure what to do with this last one ( it sure is purty).

So if anyone has found an undernourished NPC, or an item of value with no protections or worthwhile guardians and an NPC in the wrong faction or without the proper faction, I should like to know about it.

Related comment about the non scarcity of Daedric and Glass weapons, There actually are relatively few daedric items assigned in game. But every Dremora, Dremora Lord and Golden Saint drops them at the first cross-eyed look do to the way Bethesda set up the levelled lists. It is this huge influx of randomly dropped goodies that is so unbalancing to the economy of the game. This is not something I intend to address in this mod, just dropping it out there for the folks doing economic balancing mods.


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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Iudas]
      #2938418 - 08/17/04 12:18 AM

From this thread - [LIST] Monk/Unarmoured Mods

Thank you for the clarification and, not to be a Philistine but if Mercantile does not work rationally, it seems to me that whether 'broken' or simply set up with poor assumptions or math amounts to much the same result, unless the one condition is more permissive of a remedy. I look forward to the Undernourished NPC release and its remedial effect on barter.

You also stated " And anyone who wants can make the changes to the GMSTs that will correct the bad assumption on Bethesda's part."

Do I understand that correctly to mean that adjusting the merchant NPCs as you are AND changing the GMSTs would correct all or most of the problem with Mercantile function? And if that is the case, then why not do it in the Undernourished NPC mod?

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Iudas
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Ronin49]
      #2938713 - 08/17/04 02:33 AM

Quote:

Do I understand that correctly to mean that adjusting the merchant NPCs as you are AND changing the GMSTs would correct all or most of the problem with Mercantile function? And if that is the case, then why not do it in the Undernourished NPC mod



Exactly correct.
Why is it not in the undernourished NPC mod? Feature creep avoidance and the desire to have this mod ONLY address undernourished NPC's and some specific creatures.
A modular approach if you will.
And I can always breakout the Merchants from the undernourished mod and repackage them in a mercantile improvements mod for folks who only want the Merc part and not the combat/mage/creature part.

To my way of thinking, if a feature is irrepairable at a level the modder can not legally get at then it is BROKEN, ( unarmoured, turnundead as examples). If some of the GMSTs are no longer representative of the assumed skill base of the playing public, ose GMSTs can be adjusted with minimal bother. The chosen values that were adequate 2 years ago when all players were new to the game and the interactions in the game; might/are no longer adequate for folks who have played it and modded it for two years.
Mercantile works rationally given the microeconomics of morrowind. Hell, Mercantile works rationally at almost any farmer's market or flea market in this world today. But the Morrowind world is not a world of walmarts and MickeyDs. The value of a thing in MW is exactly whatever you can buy it for or sell it for. Any refernce to book values is irrelevant to the MW world.
Two things majorly determine final agreed pricing in MW. The difference in merc skills between the PC and the NPC, and how high the NPC's disposition toward you is. With the UndernourishedMod, the first part is adjusted so that NPC's are no longer inept at Merc and Speechcraft. There are other things that play a smaller part in determining final price ( differences in Luck, player Reputation, FactionMembership) but they are minor in their effect compared to Disposition and Merc Difference.
A later mod will address the gamesettings and some other skill advancement setting issues.

It is quite easy, just time consuming, to modify the microeconomic environment of MW. Bartering is just another form of combat and behaves pretty much the same way combat does.
Fixing the Macroeconomic environment is a whole nother kettle of septims. The reason folks complain that the early game is difficult in bartering but that later in the game they are all millionaires is that MW has this huge externality called LevelledCreatures in LevelledLists from which are dropped scads of "scarce" Daedric weapons. They become so much clutter and dross but the game is not sophisticated enough to reduce their prices as the supply keeps increasing and the demand stands still. So you end up with dozens of daedric items that you were told are scarce and highly valuable, and for which you have no outlets and basically no use. Fixing that issue is not something I am looking forward to addressing.
Sources and sinks --- the major sources are the levelled drops and the levelled crates and barrels come a distant second. Major sinks NONE, there is basically nothing for the PC to invest in, and very little to spend on and certainly no level of taxation. Minor sinks currently are diseases, curses and drain and damage spells on the PC for which he has to spend some pocket change for cheap meds until he finds the armour of uberprotectiveness and gets his 90% resistances to everything and shield and reflect and sanctuary and immunity to normal weapons. So the game is continually pumping value into the environment, while taking close to 0 out of the environment. The PC is left to be a collector ( I always thought the Lord of Clutter quests in Tribunal were the devs joking acknowledgement of the reality of the game ), plutocrat, Scrooge McDuck sitting on his piles of septims and diamonds and rubies and emeralds and pearls surrounded by hordes of Daedric weapons and Ebony suits of armour and enchanted rings and amulets.
Not bad for the 1001 post.


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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Iudas]
      #2938966 - 08/17/04 05:12 AM

I've followed this idea and liked it from the start...

On managing macroeconomics, I've always been a proponent of taxation. I mean, what good is taking over Tamriel if you can't exact tribute and taxes from the locals? For that matter, how does the Temple/Tribunal run things with no income? I would think an annual census and tax...assessed at various census/excise offices built through the island, would be appropriate. Say, one office in each great house headquarters, one in Vivec for the Temple, and one in Seyda Neen for the outlanders not in Great Houses?

Higher travel fees seem appropriate, too. Travel is dangerous, even on giant bugs. There should be more incentive to walk.

A supply/demand curve would be hard to script...but maybe an If/Then script. Say, if a armor dealer already has 2 daedric weapons, he offers a lower percentage of the value for a 3rd, 4th, etc? That way, you'll have to shop around your weapons to see where you can get a decent price. OR just make artifact and daedric weapons "priceless"...give them no sale value. Then they're good either for donation to the museum, or collection. Just some thoughts

~Nordie


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Iudas
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: ]
      #2939421 - 08/17/04 09:41 AM

Taxation is one of the two evils of the world.
All Empires Tax
Except this one which has decided to give the PC a tax break. .
We can create as many arbitrary Septim sinks into the game as we wish.
Scripted taxation
scripted Guild Fees
scripted Religious Tithing ( 10% of the PC's income each week to the temple or the Cult )
More diseases, more often, and much higher priced drugs and healing services.
Charitable contributions ... beggars and mendicants.
Forced Donations and
Weapons Drives....like the paper drives of WWII.
More NPCs who react loudly and negatively to stealing and trespass.
Higher priced travel and maybe travel insurance.
Higher priced training.
Fewer easily readable, unprotected Training Books.
NPC pickpockets and bandits and conmen and scammers
Comatose Tong extortionists and arsonists.
Forcing the PC to eat and drink and sleep daily all of which cost money.
( My only cavil with the fine NOM2 is that the PC can carry perishable food items in his sweaty ole inventory for a long as he wants. Ideally, food should deteriorate rapidly in the MW/medieval type environment.
Food deterioration was the big motivator to the salt trade and the spice trade )
and we can jigger with the frequency and level of exorbitant item drops. MW feels a whole lot different when there are only 18 daedric weapons on the whole island over the whole course of the game. Now finding that deadguy in the Kwama Mine with the Daedric Sword is a big deal. Getting GoldBrand is a big deal not just another ho hum display sword.
On The Sources Side of the Equation:
There is a fine mod called Erengard Mines that shows how one can develop a decent source of weekly income for the PC. Another MOD that looks promising is the Farmer's mod. And there is are three very old mods: Vvardenfell News, Indy Bank, and Balmora Stock Exchange that generate either a weekly salary or interest income or capitol gains income for the PC.
A lot could be done with the C&EO as a joinable faction if someone wanted to model the old idea of Tax Farming ( Where an empire basically franchises the right to tax certain areas to certain "special" folks and they get to keep anything over the base amount the empire assesses them each quarter ). And of course the C&EO would be involved in controlling smuggling and other forms of tax avoidance.
And with BM installed, it makes sense to integrate the EEC faction on MW and make some of the MISC quests into unified EEC quests.
Quote:

if a armor dealer already has 2 daedric weapons, he offers a lower percentage of the value for a 3rd, 4th, etc?



According to the sharp scripters this would be a colossal PITA to code as you have to check for every type and all the various enchantments.
Quote:

OR just make artifact and daedric weapons "priceless"...



Hardcoded into the game is that NPC traders will never offer less than 1 septim for an item. Nor will they ever ask less than 1 septim. Which is why it is so easy to powergame Mercantile at the start of the game if one wants to spend about an half an hour.
Steal all the saltrice in Seyda Neen ( about 200 stalks each stalk has a bookvalue of 1 ) take it all to Arielle and sell it ... one stalk at a time.
If you offer him all 200 at once he will maybe offer you 30 septims and you might haggle him up to 33, if you offer him 1 he offers you a septim and 200 successful trades later you have 200 septims ( full book value for every piece ) and your merc has risen 4 or 5 levels.
RInse and repeat with all the other items with BV of 1 that Arielle buys.
It would be good if merchants would refuse to buy quantity on these cheap items. Just to close off one of the hardcoded loopholes in the game.
That is the only hardcoded part of mercantile that I wish the devs had not done. They made it so that Merchants never offer the PC negative amounts for his goods. But MW is supposed to be a combat magic stealth game, crafting and economic interactions were lesser considerations for the game's design.
Quote:

Then they're good either for donation to the museum, or collection. Just some thoughts




Indeed, and Tribunal does that and two good mods tweak the Mournhold Museum so that it will accept even more Uniques into its collection.






Edited by Iudas (08/17/04 09:47 AM)

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Ronin49
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Iudas]
      #2939741 - 08/17/04 11:33 AM

Quote:

To my way of thinking, if a feature is irrepairable at a level the modder can not legally get at then it is BROKEN, ( unarmoured, turnundead as examples). If some of the GMSTs are no longer representative of the assumed skill base of the playing public, those GMSTs can be adjusted with minimal bother.



Yes, I thought I understood the distinction you were making. Thanks for drawing it bold again. Nodding respectfully here to your expert knowledge about how it works and why, I personally think that Mercantile is nonetheless a 'waste of rations' as currently configured.
So, that takes me back to - if it is reconfigurable, why not? [rhetorical, already answered]


Quote:

Exactly correct.
Why is it not in the undernourished NPC mod? Feature creep avoidance and the desire to have this mod ONLY address undernourished NPCs and some specific creatures.
A modular approach if you will.
And I can always breakout the Merchants from the undernourished mod and repackage them in a mercantile improvements mod for folks who only want the Merc part and not the combat/mage/creature part.



Understood. And "speaking strictly for me", as the lady said, if it is that do-able I would rather not wait for a larger economic model that might or might not be to taste.
I would be very pleased to see released, when you get there, Nourished NPCs merchant/combat/mage/creature parts and an accompanying modular esp that tweaks the GMSTs for Mercantile in the manner you have described. Just a thought . .


As for the rest of this excellent discussion:

Making money is never going to be a problem for a character with some levels and skills onboard because - regardless of what is broken, ill-configured, fixed or adjusted - game quests and mod quests provide rewards, usually tangible ones. That, if you will, is 'hard-coded' into the gamer culture. Acceptance would help, a little.

Generating income and barter should be challenges for a nearly penniless deported, newly liberated Imperial tool. The principal difficulties as I see them are:
  • the diminishing returns curve to increasing Mercantile skill levels, as that is the bug-a-boo that frustrates and encourages one to slip into the cheats and power-game techniques for money, in my view, and

  • thereafter, income generation and barter get too easy too early. A middle-level player rising in their house or faction should be solvent and getting more solvent with each step up the rung of Vvardenfell society but money should continue to be a factor that requires prudent attention. It sounds as though adjusting the merchant skill levels and the relevant GMSTs will do just that.


First, an aside - 'trashcan' mods and larger mods with trashcan features do exist. Players can discard high-price 'drop items' free of charge or profit whilst not leaving an item-cluttered game world simply by using a trashcan. The Donation thread would also appear to offer some prospects for helping the player voluntarily reduce their wealth to a reasonable level.

And finally, septims are like that. Money makes money - why should that be different in Morrowind? I would expect an acknowledged arch hero/ine, master of all, slayer of demons and demi-gods, highly successful builder of an economic base since the moment they landed on the dock and general all-round high-speed Paladin or scoundrel or something-in-between, to be rolling in wealth to the extent that it is not even a consideration for them [or whatever else is the medium of exchange in that society - it could be status or face or reverence etc].
A hero/ine of that stature would have it lavished upon them by supporters if they did not already possess it. My thesis is that by this point in the game the whole money issue can and perhaps should be ignored.
People who are scraping every centime out of every transaction at this point are perhaps not on the middle ground. If someone wants to be able to do that, fine. But I would not re-engineer anything to make the wealthy Nerevarine situation go away. As pointed out above there are already a number of realism and other mods that can or will, when released, provide the macro level money sinks for those who wish to have them.

These are very interesting changes that are being considered. I reckon they will, when implemented, dramatically improve the "replayability' aspect of Morrowind, as Arsonide termed it.

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Iudas
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Ronin49]
      #2940222 - 08/17/04 02:19 PM

Quote:

I would be very pleased to see released, when you get there, Nourished NPCs merchant/combat/mage/creature parts and an accompanying modular esp that tweaks the GMSTs for Mercantile in the manner you have described. Just a thought . .




They will be smallish mods with no texures or icons or music so not a strain to package several in one pack with a decent ( but too often unread ) readme.

Quote:

thereafter, income generation and barter get too easy too early. A middle-level player rising in their house or faction should be solvent and getting more solvent with each step up the rung of Vvardenfell society but money should continue to be a factor that requires prudent attention. It sounds as though adjusting the merchant skill levels and the relevant GMSTs will do just that.





Tweaking the GMSTs and the NPCs can delay the onset of the financial complaceny. Tweaking the levelled lists can stop it.
Nothing I can change can prevent a PC from selling those saltrice stalks one at a time and powergaming the underlying equation's cutoff point. So we shall just assume the proper Monty Python attitude toward such folk and treat them with disdain

Quote:

First, an aside - 'trashcan' mods and larger mods with trashcan features do exist. Players can discard high-price 'drop items' free of charge or profit whilst not leaving an item-cluttered game world simply by using a trashcan.




Was not aware that anyone had done this. A neat idea indeed.

Quote:

A hero/ine of that stature would have it lavished upon them by supporters if they did not already possess it. My thesis is that by this point in the game the whole money issue can and perhaps should be ignored.




Indeed I suspect that by the time they have defeated DU, the PC is rarely involved in any barter at all. The barter necessity does fade away. In the game as in the real world, the very poor and the very rich have very few real issues with money. It is only those striving and stuck in the middle who need to make the septims count.
So, even if we added scripted taxes to the game, the NerevarinePC doesn't even notice the tax bite and if he needs money he has all those swords and armours on his display dummies that he can sell, but those just off the boat and climbing would notice them and have to react to them.





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Ronin49
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Iudas]
      #2940477 - 08/17/04 03:20 PM

Agreed.

Trashcan by Phaedra at the Summit. "Add various trash receptacles to the cities of Morrowind. Ever have items you wanted to just get rid of? Put them in the garbage and they are gone forever. Beneficial side effect, deleting unnecessary items could improve your fps. Tribunal Required."

There were several others mentioned I think on an excellent thread on this 'Trashcan' subject in April or May 2004, started from an FPS discussion. It is now gone or I cannot find it using the obvious keywords. Perhaps someone else who recalls it may post more.



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Iudas
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Re: Undernourished Mercantile [Re: Ronin49]
      #2940715 - 08/17/04 04:17 PM

TY It would be called something obvious like trashcan if it had had a really outrageous name I would have found it
Shall run it through the TESCS and then probably add it to my game, and to my GADGETS OF MORROWIND list.

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